We did it! Amazing DRK changes!

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Originally Posted by CidHeiral

Unique jobs will by definition all have "unique problems" because they will have strengths and weaknesses. If you don't want jobs to have any weaknesses then you can't also complain about homogenization.

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If you want jobs to have unique strengths and weaknesses, that needs to be the design philosophy across the board. Shake it Off is a flat shield effect using 15-21% max HP, works on all damage types, has a 300 potency heal and a 100 potency regen effect for 15 seconds. The break even point for %DR effects like Heart of Light and Dark Missionary is when the total incoming damage across all hits exceeds 150-210% max HP for magical damage, and 300-410% max HP for physical damage, after all other raidwide mitigation effects have been considered. And that's after putting pressure on the design team to change it for years.

Are you able to explain the trade-off here? Because it seems to me that one job is just consistently better than the others defensively. It gets even worse when you look at Holmgang, which is the best invuln with no downside. It always seems that the homogenization argument gets trotted out whenever people want to defend their advantages over others. Show me that players are willing to take on unique drawbacks for all those advantages, and then we'll talk about job identity.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

If you want jobs to have unique strengths and weaknesses, that needs to be the design philosophy across the board. Shake it Off is a flat shield effect using 15-21% max HP, works on all damage types, has a 300 potency heal and a 100 potency regen effect for 15 seconds. The break even point for %DR effects like Heart of Light and Dark Missionary is when the total incoming damage across all hits exceeds 150-210% max HP for magical damage, and 300-410% max HP for physical damage, after all other raidwide mitigation effects have been considered. And that's after putting pressure on the design team to change it for years.

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Well, surely, it's just that Warrior, in turn for superior raid mitigation (and an invuln that's often the best in practice in any meaningful content), lacks damage, control over their output dynamics, specific utility, and/or personal sustain. ...Right?

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Originally Posted by Lyth

If you want jobs to have unique strengths and weaknesses, that needs to be the design philosophy across the board.

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I agree and I hope that comes to pass.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

If you want jobs to have unique strengths and weaknesses, that needs to be the design philosophy across the board.

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Of course. Everyone needs unique strenghts, which assuming they're actually unique automatically creates unique weaknesses, too. It's then up to the content designers to not overly prod only at one weakness and one strength, but assuming a roughly even spread of content, things balance out.

Source: Just about every RPG, ever. :P

Shake it Off and Divine Veil have been at least comparable if not better against magic damage than Dark Missionary / Heart of Light for quite a while, so DM / HoL didn't have any unique strengths nor have they lost any, they only had and still have unique weakness. Also how are we talking about things being unique where Dark Missionary and Heart of Light were both added in the same expansion and since their conception they have been literally the same ability with a different icon and name.

I'd rather have jobs be differentiated by their gameplay than some weird checklist of "strengths and weaknesses". The fact that I've the same or equivalent mits on all tanks I play bound to the exact same buttons, and how I play those tanks in the same content is more or less identical sans the dps rotation is why tanks are homogenized. The fact that some of these buttons on different tanks are way stronger than they are on other tanks provides very little actual gameplay difference to me. All it gives is frustration with the game not being balanced when I do content and I press my buttons and someone dies and I know if I played another tank and pressed literally the same button on my mouse or keyboard they wouldn't have.

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Originally Posted by Terhix

I'd rather have jobs be differentiated by their gameplay than some weird checklist of "strengths and weaknesses".

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I think you misunderstand. One necessitates the other.

Any non-trivial difference in gameplay will by its very nature make the job better against some things and worse against others. At that point, design might as well lean into it, focusing the actual tooltip effects even more into the niche and augmenting both the strengths and the weaknesses, "enhance job feel", basically.

Gameplay has to be different, yes. We don't want the current copy/paste job that basically describes every single role but the two ranged ones (and even those are crumbling). But this also assumes everyone is okay with genuinely being weaker in many situations - and stronger in others. But this also means we have to at some point accept that the devs will get blasted with a ton of comments about imbalance and people switching, e.g., to all Black Mage for one fight then all Reaper for the next etc etc, and having to work with that as people are annoying needing to have every job levelled. But at the same time, meaningful gameplay difference without situational imbalance is impossible, far as any MMORPG that tried so far can tell, and it's a lot of years, we can probably just assume this is a universal truth at this point.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

Any non-trivial difference in gameplay will by its very nature make the job better against some things and worse against others.

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Yet XIV somehow achieves the worst of both worlds where the gameplay, once you exclude the dps rotation, is near identical and the balance of the tank kits is still off. They could have turned Shake it Off, Divine Veil, Dark Missionary, and Heart of Light into a role action button that does universal 10% mit + some hot, and this is the complete list of how the gameplay for all tanks would change:

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Originally Posted by Terhix

Yet XIV somehow achieves the worst of both worlds where the gameplay, once you exclude the dps rotation, is near identical and the balance of the tank kits is still off. They could have turned Shake it Off, Divine Veil, Dark Missionary, and Heart of Light into a role action button that does universal 10% mit + some hot, and this is the complete list of how the gameplay for all tanks would change:

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Actually not at all true, we're just "spoiled". Our "big imbalances" are yestergame's "we're done balancing, stuff is less than 25% off from each other, call it a day"-solution.

It really is that different nowadays. BLMs explode at Pictos doing 4% more damage while being easier to play, back in the days (/grandpamode on) you'd be delighted if your favorite class dealt 50% of the damage of whatever was the overpowered meta, and the killspeed would vary massive based on whether you got 40 random people vs 8 parties all hyper-optimizing.

That is not to devalue our own balance struggles at all, though. Rather, our current balance struggles exist on a platform on which everyone can do anything, and we're worried about someone doing it better or worse. Previous MMOs often intentionally did not create content to say, have a tank of class X or Y. It was only tank Z that was ever created to tank this, bring a tank of class Z if you want to do it. The context changed wildly in the past ~20 years.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

It really is that different nowadays. BLMs explode at Pictos doing 4% more damage while being easier to play, back in the days (/grandpamode on) you'd be delighted if your favorite class dealt 50% of the damage of whatever was the overpowered meta, and the killspeed would vary massive based on whether you got 40 random people vs 8 parties all hyper-optimizing.

That is not to devalue our own balance struggles at all, though. Rather, our current balance struggles exist on a platform on which everyone can do anything, and we're worried about someone doing it better or worse. Previous MMOs often intentionally did not create content to say, have a tank of class X or Y. It was only tank Z that was ever created to tank this, bring a tank of class Z if you want to do it. The context changed wildly in the past ~20 years.

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i don't know if that was better or worse, the only game where that ever "worked" was vanilla World of Warcraft, you really had the feeling of class identity, every class had its own strenghts and weaknesses but balance were thrown out the window.

Veil and Shake are better than Heart of light and Dark Missionary. Because most cases any physical raidwide damage the healer group mitigation will be higher at 10% which will take base. So the 5% will most likely be 2.5% or lower depending on the group combined mitigation. For magical aoes which are most of the raidwides are great.

Like others have said. I think they will scrap all of the tank group mits and turn it into a role action and make it available at low levels. Thats homogenization but I think they need to homogenize some things to allow for them to add more unique things to jobs.