[SPOILERS] Dawntrail should get an ARR-style retcon in the post-MSQ

The difference with ShB was that ShB presented the unsundered’s opinions as incredibly wrong and flawed but understandable why they hold them. It never tried to make you feel good about what you did to them

Meanwhile DT can’t figure out if turning off the endless is a moral dilemma or something that should be accompanied by playing smile

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Originally Posted by Eyrilona

Even when disagreeing with the sentiment of ShB though, at least that expansion got points for style. Which is a lot harder to say about Dawntrail, which violates so many conventions of good writing that it would still be rough to get through even if you did agreed with the subject matter, never mind if you don't...

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We can agree to disagree, to me, the WoL being Azem was the lowest point of the whole narrative. I never fancied "Chosen One" tropes and the more I had to be emphatic towards Emet and appreciate Elpis in Endwalker, I felt completely disconnected from my character. Elpis salvation was that I related more to Hermes out of everyone, and as funny as it may be, I never felt so immersed in my character than when he got into Heritage Found, for in my headcannon, he would abhor everything in there and feel a solemn duty to put those matters to rest. Each character is an individual at the end of the day, mine would set Living Memory to rest with sadness, pride, and obstinate to make it right to bring their memories to those who had forgotten them, which was all of Solution 9. Or at least carry the burden forward.

Dawntrail narrative suffered from pacing, it was not a bad narrative, the problem was the delivery. It was too short and too long at the same time, was unable to properly put everything in perspective with the time necessary, it was an expansion meant to be BIG, and they had to fit a whole buffet inside a meal box. It wasn't going to work. I blame the fact they were conservative and too afraid to break from their formula of expansions made since Stormblood, truth be told. We needed more time, more zones, a proper explanation of events in each zone without making it feel forced, absence of Wuk Lamat after her coronation. But the story really ain't bad, at all. For FFXIV standards maybe, but, eh.

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Originally Posted by OMGJesuis66

We can agree to disagree, to me, the WoL being Azem was the lowest point of the whole narrative. I never fancied "Chosen One" tropes and the more I had to be emphatic towards Emet and appreciate Elpis in Endwalker, I felt completely disconnected from my character. Elpis salvation was that I related more to Hermes out of everyone, and as funny as it may be, I never felt so immersed in my character than when he got into Heritage Found, for in my headcannon, he would abhor everything in there and feel a solemn duty to put those matters to rest. Each character is an individual at the end of the day, mine would set Living Memory to rest with sadness, pride, and obstinate to make it right to bring their memories to those who had forgotten them, which was all of Solution 9. Or at least carry the burden forward.

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I think that our WoL's soul being a sundered fragment of that of Azem was fine, but it should only have been used as a device to explain why those of the Ancients/Ascians that were close to Azem would have felt differently about us than about any other sundered mortal. I don't really care for this whole baggage where we are now more or less guided towards trying to re-tread Azem's steps as if we are under some obligation now to pick up where they left off and continue a legacy or something. We already have an abundance of legacy of our own as heroes in our own right, we didn't need some outside source to give us something to live up to for the next ten years.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

The difference with ShB was that ShB presented the unsundered’s opinions as incredibly wrong and flawed but understandable why they hold them. It never tried to make you feel good about what you did to them

Meanwhile DT can’t figure out if turning off the endless is a moral dilemma or something that should be accompanied by playing smile

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I still hate that they made us go on a forced sightseeing tour even though we knew the shut down was inevitable. It just felt super inappropriate and disconnected from the player's desires. But the disconnect is felt during many instances of the Dawntrail MSQ, which I can't say from any other expansion. And once again I'm left wondering what the heck happened in the writing department.

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Originally Posted by Mondschnee

I still hate that they made us go on a forced sightseeing tour even though we knew the shut down was inevitable. It just felt super inappropriate and disconnected from the player's desires. But the disconnect is felt during many instances of the Dawntrail MSQ, which I can't say from any other expansion. And once again I'm left wondering what the heck happened in the writing department.

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Agreed. Whilst not doing so would've made the story much shorter I didn't enjoy the silly "hey, nice to meet you before I pull the plug on this place!" tour we had to undertake.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

The difference with ShB was that ShB presented the unsundered’s opinions as incredibly wrong and flawed but understandable why they hold them. It never tried to make you feel good about what you did to them

Meanwhile DT can’t figure out if turning off the endless is a moral dilemma or something that should be accompanied by playing smile

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This. You summed up so succinctly what my problem with all of Living Memory and Sphene is and why that whole section was just insulting to pay through.

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Originally Posted by CuteBucket

This. You summed up so succinctly what my problem with all of Living Memory and Sphene is and why that whole section was just insulting to pay through.

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I got the impression we were supposed to care, but our characters sure AF didn't act like it.

But ultimately, that ambiguity definitely does exist and leads to other problems with taking away any kind of character agency. If we were supposed to care, then we should've been trying to find a solution (even if we ultimately failed) while Wuk and Co. talked to the locals before deleting them. Let's be honest, our presence in that final zone didn't change anything until the end.

If we weren't supposed to care then we shouldn't have bothered even talking to them and just flipped the switches. Hiroi was just trying to have his cake and eat it too.

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Originally Posted by OMGJesuis66

We can agree to disagree, to me, the WoL being Azem was the lowest point of the whole narrative. I never fancied "Chosen One" tropes ...

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Then I'm not sure why you stick to the game that long tbh. The WoL has been the chosen one since day one, you didn't have to wait until ShB to become one. I don't think the relevation of the WoL being Azem make us any more of a chosen one than we already are from the beginning. All it does is establish a connection between our character and the past, and that rarely is a bad thing.

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....I felt completely disconnected from my character.

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I don't think this is a game where you're supposed to self-insert as the WoL, unlike say ... Mass Effect where you can self-insert as Shepard and role play the good cop/bad cop action. The personality and narrative for the WoL is set in stone. If anything, I feel the connection to Azem flesh out the personality of the the WoL a lot more. Up until the relevation, I sometime get annoyed with the WoL's terminal case of selflessness like ... no one can be that much of a goodies two shoes who keep throwing their life away and jumping into fire to save others. But when it's revealed that how Azem is, both as a personality and the responsibility of their office. If we assume all Azem office holders carry the same zeal (Emet implied as much), that means our WoL would love the world as much as Venat do. As such, it helps justify the hopelessly good personality the WoL has.

Again, I don't think the Azem connection is intended for you to be relatable to the WoL, but rather to flesh out the WoL as a character, and it does a very good job at that.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

Again, I don't think the Azem connection is intended for you to be relatable to the WoL, but rather to flesh out the WoL as a character, and it does a very good job at that.

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Agreed. Since we're a mostly silent protagonist in a rigid story where motivations are pretty much required, this helps give us some backstory and canon. You glean little bits of insight with some of the dialog too, and all the answers are meant to be partially Azem, and partially WoL. The only time I can really think of a self-insert being possible is during the small 4th wall breaks in Endwalker. That I can't deny.

Well if we are rigidly supposed to be following azem’s legacy that just makes the whole endless problem worse

Like ignoring the Azem that was sundered into us venat was also Azem and her actions are shown to be something that she struggled over and pondered for a long time and she still never fully came to the conclusion of if she truly did the right thing or not and we don’t have to agree with what she did even if we were the catalyst for it (you can say that you disagree with venat in the omega follow up)

Meanwhile we go around and genocide the endless then smile plays in the background while we celebrate saving everything never having stopped once to consider if we were doing the right thing

So if you have a sort of headcanon like mine it’s bad and if you want the WOL to follow the benevolence of Azem it’s also terrible