A few questions for the BLM mains/enjoyers

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

With the recent buffs I think BLM is ideal shape. The main problems with FFXIV combat have nothing to do with the job for me. I see lots of problems with many other jobs and the combat in general.

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Mm, by the numbers, including class use rates both in savage/ultimates and outside, BLM is in anything but ideal shape.

There's only 1 class less played than Black Mage right now, and it's nowhere close to ideal. Or, to put it another way, they made BLM the literal best DPS class in the game and people still aren't playing it. That should say a lot about the state the class is actually in.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

Mm, by the numbers, including class use rates both in savage/ultimates and outside, BLM is in anything but ideal shape.

There's only 1 class less played than Black Mage right now, and it's nowhere close to ideal. Or, to put it another way, they made BLM the literal best DPS class in the game and people still aren't playing it. That should say a lot about the state the class is actually in.

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It's in the state of sharing a dps slot with the Caster that you can teach a lab rat to play that still produces acceptable DPS numbers at lv90 and borderline broken numbers below 80.

The reason why BLM is in such a state is because people will go the path of least resistence when having to learn a Caster job by choosing the Caster that essentially doesn't cast.

If melee wasnt so dominant that you do double melee or bust AND if Summoner wasn't disrespecting the role by essentially being a physical Ranged DPS in caster gear and actually had a modicum of casting let alone skill requirement, you'd see a better balance between Caster jobs. It would also help if they axed Resurrection and Verraise since that heavily skews reason to pick the other two over Black Mage.

BLM has issues, but none of them big enough to be "the reason" why participation is low.

I don't think both of your comments are really mutually exclusive.

I find the case of BRD a lot more puzzling myself tbh. rPhys also has the same issue of job representation with DNC that gets similar ludicrous ratios, but fortunately MCH and BRD don't fare better on numbers, unlike BLM (so imagine that job without an edge there, that would be something to watch on caster job representation, or the other way around, if MCH or BRD was doing significantly more damage, you'd see a lot less DNC players).

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Originally Posted by Valence

I don't think both of your comments are really mutually exclusive.

I find the case of BRD a lot more puzzling myself tbh. rPhys also has the same issue of job representation with DNC that gets similar ludicrous ratios, but fortunately MCH and BRD don't fare better on numbers, unlike BLM (so imagine that job without an edge there, that would be something to watch on caster job representation, or the other way around, if MCH or BRD was doing significantly more damage, you'd see a lot less DNC players).

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Actually I heard that relative to before the addition + recent buffs, Machinist is now actually picked a fair bit more. While not surpassing Dancer, the re-addition of Dismantle to offer a 2nd defensive raid utility and the most recent damage buffs have made Machinist see more play. Or at least I got told so, feel free to verify it.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

It's in the state of sharing a dps slot with the Caster that you can teach a lab rat to play that still produces acceptable DPS numbers at lv90 and borderline broken numbers below 80.

The reason why BLM is in such a state is because people will go the path of least resistence when having to learn a Caster job by choosing the Caster that essentially doesn't cast.

If melee wasnt so dominant that you do double melee or bust AND if Summoner wasn't disrespecting the role by essentially being a physical Ranged DPS in caster gear and actually had a modicum of casting let alone skill requirement, you'd see a better balance between Caster jobs. It would also help if they axed Resurrection and Verraise since that heavily skews reason to pick the other two over Black Mage.

BLM has issues, but none of them big enough to be "the reason" why participation is low.

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This would only be true if people didn't regularly also play jobs that were hard. Samurai is not an easy class to play but is overwhelmingly the most popular melee. Back in stormblood, when it was arguably the hardest DPS class to play (tied with BLM,) it was also overwhelmingly the most positive.

By the end-cycle of a patch, parse groups tend to bias higher-DPS jobs because bored people like getting big numbers. Classes people favor for parsing tend to be used a lot more. We're not seeing jumps in play rates of BLM, like we did in Shadowbringers. The class is, simply, not being chosen or played right now except by the few die hards. It's not as dire as Machinist during stormblood as it's hard to break a class that badly, but it is very reminiscent of Machinist in Stormblood in that something is fundamentally broken.

It being hard doesn't explain people not playing it, since even with the requirement of being hard, people still played it in savage in SB and ShB. Hell, I saw it even in HW when its gameplay could best be described as broken by design.

The only thing that accurately describes the play rate of BLM is that the class doesn't fit the game the devs are making. The reason why I further bring this up is because both BLM and RDM have seen massive drops in play rates going from ShB into EW. And you can't use the argument that RDM is somehow a hard class to play, because it's truly not.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Actually I heard that relative to before the addition + recent buffs, Machinist is now actually picked a fair bit more. While not surpassing Dancer, the re-addition of Dismantle to offer a 2nd defensive raid utility and the most recent damage buffs have made Machinist see more play. Or at least I got told so, feel free to verify it.

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Bard and Dancer used to be played more than machinist. When MCH got buffed in...6.4 I think? the numbers jumbled around and people abandoned bard. There's probably a good argument that if Bard, Machinist, and Dancer were buffed to rDPS numbers similar to summoner/black mage, they'd all be played more than RDM/BLM. People do have a tendency to chase numbers, and only start to avoid classes with good numbers if they play particularly terribly, such as with Black mage.

Bard definitely plays badly, but it's not bad enough for people to avoid playing it in my eyes, especially since its gameplay is closest to WoW's general DPS design, so there's a lot of overlap for people who love priority-based rotations. It needs refinement, but I don't think it needs much. Black Mage, on the other hand, is designed for a game the devs stopped making in late shadowbringers, but also has deep-seeded problems in class design that are depressing the numbers more than, simply, the high-movement meta by itself would account for.

For a class everyone says has more movement than red mage, it's played a lot less.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

For a class everyone says has more movement than red mage, it's played a lot less.

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Reasons people pick Red Mage over Black Mage:

• Verraise
• Melee burst phases to mix up caster gameplay
• It's an easier gameplay loop than BLM to learn
• Did I mention Verraise yet?
• Shortcast + Dualcast + Accel is easier to manage for many than BLM's CD and proc management for movement, even if it might be less total
• Maybe they just like the aesthetic more
• No, seriously - Verraise matters for this

BLM has more/better mobility when it matters. RDM has more perceived mobility, i.e. has overall good mobility but can't bank 9+ instants in a row like BLM or use teammates / their Leylines as anchor points for dashes.

Really, BLM isn't this crazy difficult job some pretend it to be, there is just a lot of other things skewing it.

Verraise isn't even really picked anymore because everything's a body check. No, really. Everything is a body check.

And, you missed my point. Red Mage went from the most played caster outright to barely played more than black mage. People abandoned it for this expansion as well.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

Verraise isn't even really picked anymore because everything's a body check. No, really. Everything is a body check.

And, you missed my point. Red Mage went from the most played caster outright to barely played more than black mage. People abandoned it for this expansion as well.

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Well... Summoner. Don't what to tell you except the comment I made about Summoner in my first response to you.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Well... Summoner. Don't what to tell you except the comment I made about Summoner in my first response to you.

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And I would say that in a world where raising isn't that important, what summoner brings to the table is the only caster DPS in the entire game designed to play in the fights the devs are actually designing.