From Meleewalker to Meleetrail

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Attendance checks are just there to ensure that every player present actually knows how to do the mechanic themselves. If you didn't have them, you could warm the floor for the entire fight and still clear. That's why story encounters don't generally have them.

Raises aren't 'healer skill expression'. I'm not sure where you got that idea from.

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The punishment for people dying is already a damage loss. When Savage fights are current, you can't afford a whole lot of deaths because there's Enrage. Body checks just make progging a massive pain because unless everyone executes the mechanic perfectly, it's a wipe. It's why P8S was such a static killer. It's just arbitrarily making fights annoying without adding and meaningful difficulty.

Even looking back on the most recent tier of savage content that we finished, the dps checks have become incredibly soft. Surprisingly, you could even afford to burn tank LB on HH during a week 1 clear of P10S. P12S P2 has one of the comfortable checks I've seen out of any end of expansion savage fight, and you can afford to have deaths on misplaced Palladian Rays and still clear. If they didn't have attendance checks at multiple points, or have ways to make individual deaths snowball into a wipe, you'd clear without understanding most of the mechanics just by knowing your rotation and maintaining uptime. Savage content is just about mechanics checks now.

I don't have anything against raises personally, mind you. I just think that certain DPS jobs having access to it would be less controversial if it didn't actually matter how many 'raise providing' jobs existed. I don't like the idea that a job should be punished simply for bringing a raise, or that should be the entire justification for you including it in a group. If you increase access and tighten the restrictions, then it stops being a barrier to job balance.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I don't have anything against raises personally, mind you. I just think that certain DPS jobs having access to it would be less controversial if it didn't actually matter how many 'raise providing' jobs existed. I don't like the idea that a job should be punished simply for bringing a raise, or that should be the entire justification for you including it in a group. If you increase access and tighten the restrictions, then it stops being a barrier to job balance.

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I say almost this exact quote everywhere in these forums that body checks by themselves aren't bad as it requires everyone to be competent at a fight and increases the overall skill floor of the player base which is great. HOWEVER, you can't have your cake and eat it too. What I mean is that you can't balance jobs around the ability to rez multiple people that is supposed to save a fight and then have every other mechanic be a body check that requires all 8 people to be up. Looking at P12S specifically, all of the major mechanics are body checks save tank invulning para and ekpyrosis 1. If not all 8 people are up at the start of the mechanic then fucking OOPS back to the start with the lot of you. Not even considering if you died during the mechanic before the part you were relevant for. I mean why is it that during caloric 1 if a tank died during crush helm and they respawn a second too late they spawn with 4 caloric stacks instead of the normal 1? Unless that's just a fucked up bug then the developerss are purposefully making mechanics that punish rezzer's for no good reason while also keeping their damage low for "balance".

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Originally Posted by Rychu

I say almost this exact quote everywhere in these forums that body checks by themselves aren't bad as it requires everyone to be competent at a fight and increases the overall skill floor of the player base which is great. HOWEVER, you can't have your cake and eat it too. What I mean is that you can't balance jobs around the ability to rez multiple people that is supposed to save a fight and then have every other mechanic be a body check that requires all 8 people to be up. Looking at P12S specifically, all of the major mechanics are body checks save tank invulning para 1. If not all 8 people are up at the start of the mechanic then fucking OOPS back to the start with the lot of you. Not even considering if you died during the mechanic before the part you were relevant for. I mean why is it that during caloric 1 if a tank died during crush helm and they respawn a second too late they spawn with 4 caloric stacks instead of the normal 1? Unless that's just a fucked up bug then the develops are purposefully making mechanics that punish rezzer's for no good reason while also keeping their damage low for "balance".

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Agreed. And what's worse for jobs like RDM is arguably just the combination of raids having varied amounts of such extreme body checks atop the way RDM seems to be charged for that utility being relative flat outside of whether the likely deaths occur during their burst window.

The contextual value of Verraise between its most ideal and least ideal contexts varies more heavily than its costs, which are solely its offensive uptime lost (value dependent on when that Verraise is needed) and its MP cost (which is irrelevant until nearing starvation, since RDM has no other burst-spending mechanism nor any useful MP-conserving mechanism).

With the range of cost to effect varying so much from fight to fight, it's damn hard to balance under the way it's currently handled (which like a fee for simply having the ability, first, and a use-cost only a distant second).

Which is a two pronged reason I think raise should be shackled or deleted from non healers. The 8 man checks themselves, or at least the sheer frequency of them, is a response the design team has to Verraise and Resurrection because having 3 people on the team who can raise has the potential to stitch together some bad situations. If everyone is zombying through mechanics like that, then well...make it so you need everyone up, hale, and hearty for every mechanic.

8 body checks aren't bad but they've become way too frequent outside of Ultimate imo. It serves only to combat this issue developed by SE itself.

So shackle or delete caster raises, decide how casters are to be balanced intra and intergroup, and relax on the frequent body checks. I don't think that would fix everything but I think its at least a step in the right direction.