Change SCH Dissipation

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

You really trust SE to delete a skill from a healer and then give us something better in exchange at this point?
Have the last few years taught you nothing?

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Of course not, but that was (in theory) pretty much the point of the 5.0+ mess. The healers are so homogenized that balance should be trivial.
Messing up and giving something worse than dissipation would be kinda impressive.
Should they fail anyway, it will be entertaining to see how they screw it this time and the usual backlash.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Did you not read any of the SCH quests or even their lore blurb?

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it was the brilliant strategic manoeuvring of Nym's scholars that allowed their mundane army of mariners to throw back would-be conquerors time and again

Klyhia, tactical planning:
Nicely done. Adaptation, improvisation─I might have been observing our beloved guildmaster himself in action!
This was the perfect example of how the strategy for a given task should be tailored to the abilities of the assessor.
In other words, before you begin formulating your tactics, it is necessary to fully understand your own strengths and weaknesses.
On that note, there is another question I would ask you: when it comes to improving the probable success of a strategy, do you consider it more effective to concentrate on playing to your strengths, or shoring up your weaknesses?
Oho, again you respond as the guildmaster once did. I must revise the probability for your potential to attain greatness to...97%. You are one to keep an eye on, that much is certain.


Alkazolka, forgotten but not gone: My archaeological pursuits are but an extension of this practice, for at present I am researching the military tactics of ancient Nym.

Alka zolka, the last remnants: Apparently, a single scholar could provide effective support for an entire party of marauders!
They would employ their magicks to heal the wounds and enhance the abilities of their allies. Moreover, they often served in leadership roles, as they were highly trained tacticians.

I'd put more but it's basically every quest from lv1 arcanist to lv60 scholar.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Exactly zero parts say "Eat your Faerie partner for power".

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Surito carito, forward the royal marines: Allow me to pass on to you one of Nym's mightiest abilities─Dissipation. It is a secret spell meant for use only by those scholars who have earned the full trust of their faerie companions.

Why shouldn't I recommend the job you're trying to turn scholar into when it clearly already exists?

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Agreed with basically all of this post other than this bit. SCH is a mess, but it has some other synergy abilities, which are the things I most like about the Job. Recitation, Deployment Tactics, Emergency Tactics, Fey Illumination, Protraction, and if you can break through the clunk and make meaningful use of it, Dissipation's positive sides (anti-synergy aside) all allow for synergy between abilities. They went the wrong way with Fey Blessing (they should have removed the CD, or stuck a shorter one like 20 sec, but preferably removed, and left the Gauge cost so the Gauge would have a second use and you could stock burst AOE healing that way if you wanted to), but there is some potential there.

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They could probably just make Dissipation remove fairy gauge like Fey Union, but make the fairy pulse fey blessing (a far less version) every tick, and giving an AF stack every 3 ticks (30 gauge used). Like an embrace that hits the entire party, but they can't do anything else while it's being used, unless you toggle it off. That at least gives another use for the fairy gauge and Dissipation is a lot better for use, while still allowing its capabilities to give AF. It also makes it more of a tactical decision that still locks you out of fairy moves, but only until you toggle it off or you run out of gauge.

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Originally Posted by fulminating

it was the brilliant strategic manoeuvring of Nym's scholars that allowed their mundane army of mariners to throw back would-be conquerors time and again

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"These learned men and women defended the freedom of their tiny nation with their unique command over spell-weaving faeries, utilizing the creatures' magicks to heal the wounded and bolster the strength of their allies."

You can't take one part out that says what you want and ignore the rest. The word strategic doesn't include eat your allies for power.

You're also (largely) quoting from the Arcanist class quests, not the SCHOLAR ONES. Arcanist evolves into Summoner, not SCH (they have different color icons), but even so, neither Summoner nor Scholar are Arcanists.

And would you like me to go through every SCH quest pointing out where Lily is mentioned and you working with her is pointed out in some way? Obviously, I could do so if you want to, but do I really need to?

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Why shouldn't I recommend the job you're trying to turn scholar into when it clearly already exists?

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Okay, I'll bite:

How does removing Dissipation turn SCH into SGE?

Does removing Dissipation cause Broil, Biolysis, Art of War, Ruin 2, and Energy Drain to heal your Kardia target? Do you even have Kardia on SCH...? I didn't think you did, but you're saying it'd be just like SGE without Dissipation, so that must mean when you get on SCH, you use Kardia on your tank, right?

Does removing Dissipation make your broken Adlo shields generate a charge of a damaging attack that does the same damage as a single Broil largely used as a movement tool but can be used for a ridiculously minor DPS gain on trash packs?

Does spending Aetherflow give you 7% MP back?

Do you have a collection of Aetherflow spenders that allow you to maintain 45 out of 60 seconds of 10% mitigation of a target of your choosing without blowing any of your non-AF "real" CDs?

I forget, did SCH get a gap closer that you can target on any ally or enemy for a lot of movement advantages?

Can SCH cast Barriers on party members while moving without blowing Swiftcast or a long CD?

Which SCH ability applies a refreshing Barrier on the whole party with 5 charges that protect against 5 attacks and provide a heal on the end for any unused barrier stacks?

Which SCH ability applies a refreshing Barrier on a single taret with 5 charges that protect against 5 attacks and provide a heal on the end for any unused barrier stacks?

Which SCH ability allows consuming of existing shields on party members to provide a burst heal?

What's the name of the SCH ability that boosts the amount of healing their Tank receives via their Kardia whenever they cast Broil?

Does removing Dissipation arm SCH's with nouliths and turn their attack animations into lasers?

Which SCH ability does a GCD's worth of damage to the enemy while popping a big heal on the party?

Does removing Dissipation make Ruin 2 a damage gain over Broil that's also AOE but requires near-melee range to use?

Does removing Dissipation remove Energy Drain and the interplay between providing extra healing and mitigation or choosing to do damage for a bit of optimization if your CDs and healing plan are managed well?

Does removing Dissipation rob SCH of the ability to remotely heal by placing their healing pet? (Ironically; USING Dissipation is what does THAT...)

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SGE is superficially like SCH, but they are far from identical. Memes are good fun until people start to think they're accurate reflections of reality.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

They could probably just make Dissipation remove fairy gauge like Fey Union, but make the fairy pulse fey blessing (a far less version) every tick, and giving an AF stack every 3 ticks (30 gauge used). Like an embrace that hits the entire party, but they can't do anything else while it's being used, unless you toggle it off. That at least gives another use for the fairy gauge and Dissipation is a lot better for use, while still allowing its capabilities to give AF. It also makes it more of a tactical decision that still locks you out of fairy moves, but only until you toggle it off or you run out of gauge.

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Honestly, that's a better idea. Still anti-synergy, but at least it isn't anti-Job lore at the same time and does something useful as a bonus.

This may come as something of a shock to you, but the class doesn't stop existing as soon as you unlock the job; besides sch, Monk, Ninja and Paladin quests specifically and heavily reference this, and I think all but dragoon feature some level of interaction between job and class npcs.

It's very clear you're being deliberately obtuse. There is no debate about kardia being embrace on a specific target. The wording on dosis is also funny "targets under the effect", which sounds rather like there's meant to be a kardia spread ability. Energy drain used to give you mp back before they shifted it across to aetherflow - which for some coincidental reason gives 20% of your mp back. Almost exactly three 7s. Funny that. Expedient, soil and protraction and fey illumination gives 25s of 10% mit, 10s of 10% hp increase (given the analogues to thrill of battle it's an equivalent) and 20s of 5% magic mitigation. (35s of 10% and a bit longer for a bit less on the last one for those keeping track.) That movement advantage button would be expedient you're describing wouldn't it? Yes, it's called consolation, part of summon seraph. sod charges I'm putting a shield 5 times as big on everyone. Emergency tactics but backwards. Sounds kind of like aetherpact. next one's facetious, one after that's mistaken, there isn't a phlegma so good on getting one right there, Does removing Dissipation remove Energy Drain and the interplay between providing extra healing and mitigation or choosing to do damage for a bit of optimization if your CDs and healing plan are managed well? is the exact problem which only shows you're fully aware why people aren't happy with the idea of it being reworked and then we're back to being facetious.

The differences between scholar and sage are more slight than between any other two healers, effort should be put into differentiating them, not homogenising.

We can split hairs over theoretical differences all day, what matters is how something plays in practice.
If we have two skills, one heals for 699 potency and shields for 1 potency and the other just heals for 700 potency you can indead say they're different. Because there might come a situation when that 1 potency shield is all that's needed to negate a knockback or that 700 instead of 699 potency heal might make the difference for healing someone to full in time.
But how big is the difference in practice? Not the theoretical parallel universe difference where it may or may not matter?

I can guarantee you that I could switch to SGE for p8s and press Kera when I would use Soil, Panhaima when I would use Seraph, Physis II when I would use Whispering Dawn, Haima when I would use Atherpact and so on and we would be fine and clear. I already did it for the other 3 bosses and it was completely fine, we cleared without issues.
Because the practical difference between SGE and SCH is so tiny, you will not even notice it in anything but cutting-edge prog when the longer mit duration from Soil over Kera starts to matter or the 10% heal buff from Physis II makes a difference.
Every other time, these differences only exist in theory and most people don't even know about the instant Soil tick or the longer mit duration or that Fey Illumination only affects GCDs while Physis II affects everything. So you can keep splitting hairs and make a long list about how SGE and SCH are totally different or you can acknowledge that you can have almost identical keybinds on both and not notice a real difference in gameplay. Let alone in anything outside Savage/ Ultimate. No, not even Ex.

They should do more abilities like the level 86 support skill every healer gets. They all generally function the same (make you need less healing as if we didn’t already have fairly little lol). But the way they function to reach that goal is slightly different and gives a ‘identity flavour’ to the skills. Like how Scholar’s Protraction is effectively mitigation (HP boost) on top of directly healing the target (kind of lol), and whereas Sage’s Krasis can be combined with Kardia/Soteria to inflate the healing from damage values. They’re both in theory the same skill (increase healing), but their practical applications are fairly different.

I think it’s the best way for them to differentiate healers whilst still managing to account for their all-consuming fear of single percentage imbalances and jobs having unique things to offer the party lol. Unfortunately what’s more likely is Sage will get a level 100 ability that consumes all Addersting, grants a full set of Addersgall and turns off Kardia for 30 seconds lol. And the nouliths mysteriously vanish into the aether for the duration. I’d say consumes Addersgall to get Addersting but honestly most people would love that lol. Meanwhile Scholar will get a cool-down that makes Broil restore HP to the target lol

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Honestly, that's a better idea. Still anti-synergy, but at least it isn't anti-Job lore at the same time and does something useful as a bonus.

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It's the only way I can think of for fixing Dissipation under SCH's current iteration. Still hoping for a rework eventually that adjusts SCH to feel better...again, would prefer if AF was gone and the fairy gauge was used for everything, though I admit it would result in Fey Union and Dissipation having to be redone, but everything else would easily transfer over IMO (especially if all the fairy abilities filled the gauge by differing amounts and if ED was just 2 charges of a 300 potency attack).

Unfortunately, it's because healers are too homogenized that we notice these nuances. What should be happening is full reworks to undo this issue because what's x to x+y?
Not sure why they thought homogenizing the healers was a great idea either, given the fact that there are only 4. (3 during the time it started heading that way)
And let's face it, providing X heal, and using 1 button press 50 times over to continue damage and your occasion DoT isn't really that different. IMO, each healer should have a niche that they excel at and have the class reworked around that niche. Rather then an afterthought, the niche should be the premise as to why the class exists.

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Originally Posted by fulminating

This may come as something of a shock to you, but the class doesn't stop existing as soon as you unlock the job;

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Did I say they did?

In lore, the classes are different than the Jobs. A THM is not a BLM. In lore, the way a BLM casts spells and uses magic is actually very distinct from a THM. While a THM relies on their own personal Aether to cast spells, a BLM uses the ambient Aether around them. This is why a THM's spells can never be as powerful as a BLM's, but it's also why the BLMs of Mhach contributed to the Calamity of Water and their craft forbidden. A THM is not a BLM. A BLM is not a THM. Indeed, a BLM is more akin to a WHM or even CNJ than to a THM, despite being a promotion of the THM in game terms. Only after many BLM quests do you even grant the discipline supervised sanction by the THM guild. Conversely, RDM was born from the union of White Magic and Black Magic after the Calamity of Water. Unlike CNJ (which is allowed limited use of ambient Aether by the Elementals), WHM (which is allowed more), or BLM (which take what they want and don't care - I wonder if BLMs would be accosted by Elementals when they enter the Black Shroud...), RDM works more akin to THM in that they use their personal Aether.

But unlike THM, they've learned extra efficient ways of using it and using their body as a secondary foci for some magical astral geometry shenanegans, akin to ACN (but only slightly), and they also perform spellcasting in such a way that they recycle expended Aether (the leftovers from a Fire spell in the air, for example) to make a feedback loop to more powerful spells. This is how a RDM generates White/Black Mana, and how they're able to cast Flare and Holy, things THMs and CNJs could not. This is also super taxing on the body and requires a high level of physical fitness and stamina. ACNs, on the other hand, use sacred geometry to channel magic through, essentially, runes of power, which focus Aether (ambient and/or personal) into effects. Theirs is far less taxing on the local Aether than WHM or BLM, though, because it appeals to natural Lay Line formations rather than bending or breaking them to cast magics.

THMs CAN attempt to cast magic like BLMs, but if they haven't mastered drawing in ambient Aether to do so, their spellcraft uses their own life force instead. This is why the proto-BLMs in the BLM quests burn up, since they're essentially consuming their own Aether for magic that needs far more and will burn up/expend their soul's energy. The CNJ quests also hint at this with Sylphie, who is attempting to cast CNJ magics - which again rely on borrowing a limited amount of ambient Aether as approved by the Elementals - using her own life force. The end result would have been similar to the BLM quest enemies that burn up trying to cast Black Magic using their own souls as their energy source.

Each of these is different in the lore, and in how they work in-universe.

Some Jobs are more and some less similar to their base Classes, but none are merely an extension of it. SCH uses Aetherflow while ACN (and SMN) use Aethercharge (until SMN's becomes DWT/Bahamut/Phoenix). NIN uses Mug but ROG has no Mudras. WAR quests often employ MRDs, but the SCH questline has a shortage of ACNs and very little work as a customs inspector and agent. Nor are ACNs shown to be powerful Allegan mages who learned how to bind Primals to their will. (Except maybe for Tataru. Jury's still out on Tataru...)

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It's very clear you're being deliberately obtuse.

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No. I'm pointing out to you that at best your "go play SGE/SGE is just easy SCH" is a gross oversimplifcation. At best. (I do agree with Kardia spread; not only have I proposed it as an Emergency Tactics-esque CD for party healing, it's almost as if the early design stages/tooltips were written for it, either it was planned early on and scrapped or maybe it's something they're holding for a future SGE ability)

If you look at anything from a broad enough definition and a far enough view, you can say they're similar. WAR is BASICALLY harder SCH, right?

Thing is, they aren't the same. The differences are less than between any other Healer pair, but the differences are stark and differentiate them. Removing the clunk from Dissipation won't homogenize them; SGE has no ability that looks like clunk-less Dissipation. Removing the "dismisses your Faerie" from Dissipation and giving it a 240 sec (4 min) CD if that's somehow too powerful for a 3 min one wouldn't make SCH into SGE any more than removing Misery would make WHM into SCH. (The difference is, Misery is actually a good ability)

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Originally Posted by Connor

They should do more abilities like the level 86 support skill every healer gets. They all generally function the same (make you need less healing as if we didn’t already have fairly little lol). But the way they function to reach that goal is slightly different and gives a ‘identity flavour’ to the skills. ...

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Agreed. I like how they are 3/4 (Protraction is a bit different, but we can throw it in here) ways of working, that produce slightly to somewhat different effects, but they work differently to give each their own niche applications while still working somewhat interchangeably (with the rest of the Healer's kit in mind) in cases you don't have the other available. (Though I still feel Taurochole is more similar to the others than Krasis)

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

It's the only way I can think of for fixing Dissipation under SCH's current iteration. Still hoping for a rework eventually that adjusts SCH to feel better...again, would prefer if AF was gone and the fairy gauge was used for everything, though I admit it would result in Fey Union and Dissipation having to be redone, but everything else would easily transfer over IMO (especially if all the fairy abilities filled the gauge by differing amounts and if ED was just 2 charges of a 300 potency attack).

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AF is an artifact, but honestly SCH's at this point, ACN and SMN both having abandoned it in all but the most tacked-on way. Though I could see the argument for using Fairy Gauge instead. Fey Union/Aetherpact needs to be redone anyway, as does Dissipation, so I'm not sure that'd be a massive loss.

The Herchefaunt in the room everyone's ignoring, though, is that 3 out of 4 Healers have a "average of 1 per 20 seconds, stacks to 3, used for oGCD/pseudo-oGCD abilities" mechanic. WHM with Lilies, SCH with Aetherflow, SGE with Addersgall. AST is honestly the most unique of the Healers at the moment.

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Originally Posted by Katish

Unfortunately, it's because healers are too homogenized that we notice these nuances. What should be happening is full reworks to undo this issue because what's x to x+y?
Not sure why they thought homogenizing the healers was a great idea either, given the fact that there are only 4. (3 during the time it started heading that way)
And let's face it, providing X heal, and using 1 button press 50 times over to continue damage and your occasion DoT isn't really that different. IMO, each healer should have a niche that they excel at and have the class reworked around that niche. Rather then an afterthought, the niche should be the premise as to why the class exists.

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Agreed. It's why my preferred solution to the present situation is to leave one Healer alone (probably WHM, since its kit just kinda works and its identity is pretty solid within it), give SCH more DoTs and interactions, give SGE an actual damage rotation, and fix Cards so they're actually interesting, the AST has some agency in how they pick them/can put their thumb on the scale to pick another, and where drawing, targeting, and playing Arcanum isn't an exercise in carpel tunnel syndrome. Flesh out their identities and give them niches related to that. Give each the tools to do the basic job/role, but with their niches being useful in different situations and their damage rotations being different so that each one can appeal to a different player type; simple, DoT, buffs, rotational.

Can even balance them to do the same damage if the Devs want to, but at least they'd play different and so players that like different playstyles could pick the one they like and enjoy its combat mechanics and gameplay loops.