YPYT is griefing. Tank role is not "puller" role

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

Well, no.
Time isn't money, and rushing through a dungeon won't get you more of either.

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Actually it is. You can clear max level dungeons within 10 minutes doing W2W pulls. You will clear in up to and over 20 minutes without it. If you need to do the top 3 roulettes for relic tomes for example, thats the difference of spending 30 min on something vs. an hour. Some of us have jobs and families so one player slowing the rest down is not exactly fun.

Conversely, there are actually situations where you can pull more than they can tank. On level tanks in low level content are not as strong as someone coming back over level to do the same, so don't be rude to baby tanks that can't handle the stuff yet.

That situation aside, while healing end game dungeons, or earlier where we are all overpowered, I will absolutely pull wall to wall and drag them back to a slow tank. I will keep them alive. If they refuse to tank, I will keep me alive while tanking and killing and healing. Then they get kicked for refusing to tank.

Joining as any class and refusing to play is indeed greifing. You could have spent that time not playing back in town, away from the people you are now rudely trying to hold back, who joined for their own reasons, not your approval. Just something to keep in mind o.o;

I'm not sure if the point is being seen. The ToS likes to be thrown around, but there's another part of it we have to be careful with. I will re-link the URL that is present a few pages back.

https://support.na.square-enix.com/f...la=1&kid=68216

・Expressions that unilaterally reject another person's opinion
・Expressions that compel a playing style

Key Points

It is prohibited to force personal views or disregard the opinions of others. If a report has been filed and the prohibited activity is confirmed, a penalty will be issued.

It is prohibited to make statements such as:

"There's no way we can clear this with [suggestion]."
"Big pulls are normal here, so do it!"
"I don't care what you think, just follow my instructions."
"I'm not asking for your opinion."

Please note that Square Enix may issue a penalty in its discretion even if a report has not been filed but the act was found being conducted in public areas such as Say and Shout, search comments, Party Finder, and online video or streaming services.

■ Point 1
Respecting the opinions of others and expressing your own opinions in the form of a "suggestion" does not constitute a violation.

■ Point 2
Expressing your wishes in the form of a request, as in the following example, does not constitute a violation.

*When offering suggestions or making requests, it's important to include your reasoning. Making suggestions/requests without a clear understanding of the reason often leads the other person to misunderstand your intention. Additionally, making suggestions or requests does not necessarily mean that they must be accepted. When your suggestion/request is rejected, you cannot then criticize or blame others, pressure others or otherwise refuse to respect their opinion, or persistently repeat the same suggestion/request or otherwise attempt to impose your playstyle on others. If a report has been filed and the prohibited activity is confirmed, a penalty will be issued.

It is possible to be able to get what you want with mass pulls. The other party members just need to be convinced that your method is what they want to do. Forcefully pulling for them or being dismissive with no reasoning does not help them to see why they should care about it. Only stating that it benefits yourself solely is not likely to convince them either. If we cannot support our argument, is it truly the more efficient method we claim it to be for the situation?

I can't think of a single case where I've seen players find fault with a tank stating upfront that they are new and anxious about tanking an unfamiliar dungeon. Those aren't the players that anyone is talking about. Most groups will be more than happy for you to chain pull single packs if you're honest, and they'll probably work extra hard to support you.

The problem is when you go a little bit further up the Dunning-Kruger curve and encounter someone who talks like they're Halone's gift to tanking but then proceed to jank tank their way through the instance, making long pauses before pulls and then deciding mid-pull that they might want to grab another pack after everyone has offloaded their cooldowns.

The hint is in the term 'You Pull You Tank'. It's unambiguous what we're talking about here.

What players are objecting to is when a tank decides to deliberately let their teammates die just to prove a point about their status within the group. By definition, that is an expression that compels a playing style on the rest of your team. And it always, always comes out of egotism.

It's worthwhile making a couple of follow-up points, though, having spent the better part of the past 10 years tanking in this game. The primary determinant of whether you can clear a pull is your group's dps. It's usually not a mitigation or healing error unless someone is really clumsy, because the average tank has an absurd amount of cooldowns. If a pull lasts too long, however, then you're at risk of dying from attrition. If you're playing dps and you want to support a less experienced tank, just kill the packs faster and they'll have no survival issues. In some cases, if you know that they're going to struggle on a particular pull, just AoE LB it. Be proactive.

The second point is that it's really easy to influence the pace of a dungeon even if you're not a tank. The solution is to hit sprint and go on ahead until you're just at the pull threshold for the next pack without actually pulling it. It non-verbally signifies to the tank that they need to keep moving, and most tanks will only feel comfortable once they're back in front of you again, which will lead them to pull the next pack in the process. If they think its their idea, you'll never get into a clash of egos over it, and they probably will want to blitz through the next expert that they do once they see how absurdly fast it can go.

You don't need to utter a word. That's the beauty of it.

I can get behind what you are saying, Lyth. I also move a little ahead of the tank when they make the first pack pull to non-verbally request a bigger pull. Most will get the message and move forward since it is a healer saying they can do it. You are right that DPS are important too to make it possible.

The topic also states the tank role is not the pull role. I stated that is sometimes true. A DPS peeling a loose add from a healer to the tank is good. Accidental face pulls are worthy of forgiveness as long as it isn't repeated the same way. A party member forcefully pulling a second group of enemies with a new anxious tank is not. It's still preferable the tank does it so the enemies more easily stay in a tight kill pile for the DPS to nuke.

As for the true YPYT ego tanks, I do not like to deal with them either. The whole party gets hurt from their lack of any actions used at all. The other 2 party members in the background are typically innocent.

Just in case some are wondering, intentional misuse of Shirk and Rescue are also mentioned in the ToS as violations. It is just worded as forcing an incapacitate by either forced combat movement or bad use of enmity transfer. It would have to happen over and over as harassment to action of course if no words are used.

"YPYT" is just the tank not doing their job. And are probably slow; worthy of needing some help.
If you're in a level cap dungeon and you aren't comfortable with large pulls regardless of your role, please study your role. They can all be done without issue.

Leveling dungeons are another beast, mind you.

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Originally Posted by Tigore

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Putting aside that this isn't YPYT, this is such a slippery case-by-case slope. Because two players can have completely different opinions on big pulls vs. not big pulls and they say you can't force your play style on others. If the tank suggests small pulls and the dps suggest big pulls, if the tank refuses to pull more than they are not respecting the opinions of the dps. If the dps pulls more than they are not respecting the tank's opinions. This part of the ToS is extremely reliant on chat logs to determine what the case is. Things like that are not as black and white.

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Originally Posted by Tigore

It is possible to be able to get what you want with mass pulls. The other party members just need to be convinced that your method is what they want to do. Forcefully pulling for them or being dismissive with no reasoning does not help them to see why they should care about it. Only stating that it benefits yourself solely is not likely to convince them either. If we cannot support our argument, is it truly the more efficient method we claim it to be for the situation?

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See, what I don't get here is why the onus is solely on the 3 out of 4 party members to convince the remaining 1 (the tank) to follow majority preference while the tank otherwise has complete and tacit control over the whole party. Choosing not to full-pull should be considered just as active a decision as choosing to full pull.

That one person is holding their hand over the "continue normal functions" button, by no explicit right beyond being closest, does not make someone else's touching the button an act of encroachment or their refusing to press it while blocking others from the anything but active sabotage.

If the group wants to full pull, they don't have to first convince the tank. If they can pull things to a tank who can be kept up and put to decent use even when just doing the bare minimum of their responsibilities, then it's enough to determine what the majority preference is and follow it. It might not be the smoothest, but that's all that's owed.

-- someone whose 9 dungeons out of 10 are done on tank

...Why not just use the PF if you really wanna progress through things fast or just use the tank yourself on Lv90 dungeons? Even better, if you really want tank to pull more than a group in leveling dungeons, why not communicate it through chat? I'm all up for new tanks to learn how to tank (it's fun y'know, pulling two groups and slapping as a tank), but surprise-pushing a child who can't swim into a pond isn't a really good idea- and tbh, real toxic IMO.

Even a beginner's... whatever it is in english, also is official, says that DPS's role is to attack enemies which is targeting your tank, you aren't exactly supposed to pull an enemy, not just "tank is supposed to take hits".

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Originally Posted by nekomir

...Why not just use the PF if you really wanna progress through things fast

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Because one typically leaves the DF for PF only when doing that content in less typical ways that'd oblige that specification. Full pulls are the norm, not the exception.