Proposed changes for underperforming jobs

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

I could draw up some theoreticals later today but I lack a lot of data to write definitives, especially knowing that SE is not likely to listen to them lol. Thank you for the kind words though :D

What I will say is, looking at the current dps spread, we're basically there in all but name already. 7.0 will probably add a new caster and split the role into damage caster and raise caster, so there's also that.

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Well yeah typing on the forums is like yelling at a wall, but it's always nice to come up with ideas that would make the game more fun/better.
I just really think your idea is the best of both worlds, where we can have more support oriented jobs which (still would kinda be dps, obviously they would need to be behind to function) but also have a strong support focus.

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I'll also add that as it's 7.0 I hope we get drastic changes such as Storm blood to Shadowbringers, so theoretically it isn't out of the realm of possibilities, SHB > Ew really just felt like the only real change was making jobs more bursty.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

In the actual context, it's about 80 aDPS if I'm not wrong?
I don't think it's insignificant but would it be impactful enough?

If we were to increase BLM personal utility (More spellshield, maybe Spellvamp) then it would make sense.

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Why not? DPS is DPS. People will do anything to be top DPS. If 1% isn't enough then fine, I'm willing to concede for more of a gap so long as it's not too much and it doesn't make BLM have raise or party buffs. The main goal here is that everyone can play every job in all content week 1 prog and clearing and be viable, even if some jobs are better at prog and some are better at clear than others. Doesn't mean you can't prog on BLM and you can't clear on SMN/RDM so long as the gap isn't too big.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

The main goal here is that everyone can play every job in all content week 1 prog and clearing and be viable, even if some jobs are better at prog and some are better at clear than others.
Doesn't mean you can't prog on BLM and you can't clear on SMN/RDM so long as the gap isn't too big.

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This is a sound argument.
Even if BLM was only ahead by a single percent, it would remain balanced and not impede the possibility of a week 1 clear.
We had ShB SMN who had massive utility and was very close to BLM, surpassing it in some cases, no one complained.
Well, to be fair there were complains but not about the BLM and SMN, mostly because of SMN alone.

BLM still has the most mobility and good survival skill after all. Thought I would add more personal mitigation on Black Mage.
Maybe something in the spirit of SAM third eye or MNK Riddle of Earth, something that could be used while casting.

Yeah, and I'm totally fine with personal utility on BLM, though I do still kinda' feel like it takes away from their "glass cannon" identity outside Manaward, but hey I'm not against it. I don't think that has to remain their identity, so long as they retain their "I'm top DPS, I hardcast a lot and rarely move" identity. I know with Triplecast having 2 charges and 60s cooldown they actually have more mobility than RDM in many situations now, which I do think is kinda' a problem and against their identity. I don't think giving RDM more mobility is the answer either, because honest immobile hardcasters is a cool, unique, and fun playstyle (IMO) that this game needs and who better than BLM for it?

Much to Firemage's delight, I think most people didn't complain about SMN's high damage in SHB because they were very difficult to play and kinda' overlooked the job balance issues it caused. The difference in quality of SMNs greatly impacted their DPS, but I was never happy about it because I feel like it should be BLM top DPS as their core identity, while SMN should provide raid damage buffs instead and thus be lower.

Personally I loved the 5.0 summoner, when the egi assault are ogcd the only problem is that the balance of the first tier of eden was catastrophic
huge DPS difference between SMN/RDM and Melee DPS/Black mage similar to current 6.2 gap, then square enix made a small rework which gave it a deal mobility and 11% more damage, it was way too much.

The summoner and the red mage should never have the DPS of a black mage, but the gap with the melee DPS should be reduced even if they adjust the BLM slightly as well.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

Yeah, and I'm totally fine with personal utility on BLM, though I do still kinda' feel like it takes away from their "glass cannon" identity outside Manaward, but hey I'm not against it. I don't think that has to remain their identity, so long as they retain their "I'm top DPS, I hardcast a lot and rarely move" identity. I know with Triplecast having 2 charges and 60s cooldown they actually have more mobility than RDM in many situations now, which I do think is kinda' a problem and against their identity. I don't think giving RDM more mobility is the answer either, because honest immobile hardcasters is a cool, unique, and fun playstyle (IMO) that this game needs and who better than BLM for it?

Much to Firemage's delight, I think most people didn't complain about SMN's high damage in SHB because they were very difficult to play and kinda' overlooked the job balance issues it caused. The difference in quality of SMNs greatly impacted their DPS, but I was never happy about it because I feel like it should be BLM top DPS as their core identity, while SMN should provide raid damage buffs instead and thus be lower.

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I don't really think BLM being a glass cannon is part of their identity, if anything they're more considered more a turret job so giving them more tools to avoid being mobile makes sense, not that it would do much good in savage because that damage down is gonna eat through way more than 1 GCD worth of damage, but hey, more defensive tools to make up for the fact that they don't have a self-heal makes sense.

Especially since RDM has vercure and SMN has 2 stacks of a 30(?) percent shield that they can use plus phoenix has built-in healing.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

We had ShB SMN who had massive utility and was very close to BLM, surpassing it in some cases, no one complained.

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In 5.1, Summoner got a massive buff (Around 25-30%), and was frankly the best caster in the game until around 5.4 after it took several nerfs over that course of time.

There was a lot of complaining.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

Much to Firemage's delight, I think most people didn't complain about SMN's high damage in SHB because they were very difficult to play and kinda' overlooked the job balance issues it caused. The difference in quality of SMNs greatly impacted their DPS, but I was never happy about it because I feel like it should be BLM top DPS as their core identity, while SMN should provide raid damage buffs instead and thus be lower.

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And just like all difficulty, SMN difficulty was subjective.
Many found it intimidating at first, but others also found the rotation quite easy with 40% of instant casts that weren't punished.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

In 5.1, Summoner got a massive buff (Around 25-30%), and was frankly the best caster in the game until around 5.4 after it took several nerfs over that course of time.
There was a lot of complaining.

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I mention it the line just below.

Yes I remember SMN was overpowered, it didn't helped that TEA released during 5.11 and got half the encounter on multi target, exactly where SMN excelled.
5.2 happened and it wasn't better. The melees were actually put at disadvantage and ranged didn't shined, the casters were at their peak.

The point is, the complains were aimed at SMN being way too overpowered.
After the nerf, it was still powerful, right behind BLM. But were there more complain about the caster role after the nerf?

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

After the nerf, it was still powerful, right behind BLM. But were there more complain about the caster role after the nerf?

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Yes.

Most of them had to deal with Red Mage because Summoner being that strong effectively made red mage obsolete, but there were still complaints about Black Mage power, because if melee hadn't been at a comparative disadvantage, the caster spot was auto-locked (in the sense that if you were to look at it objectively, there was zero reason to bring any other caster if you only brought one) to Summoner.

If you buffed Red Mage to be as strong as summoner, then Black Mage was functionally obsolete. You couldn't buff Black Mage more, because it was already shoving the Melee out of the way, but you couldn't leave Summoner as it was because Red Mage had zero reason to so low compared to it.

At the end of it all, once the dust settled after a few summoner nerfs and a few red mage buffs, I'd argue it was late enough into the expansion that things quieted down because it was now the expansion waiting game. Black Mage had a few % lead, but in terms of participation, Summoner was almost always the preferred choice, with Red mage and Black Mage being behind and somewhat equal in participation until Speedrunning was taken into account, which drew its own criticisms.

A) Red mages don't want to only be "useful" during prog
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B) Black Mages don't want to only be "useful" in speedrunning.

And as it's always been, it comes back to the raise. If a team has a black mage, it usually has a raise caster in addition to it, because no matter how much that value is downplayed, it is almost always better to have it than not. If a team has just one caster, that caster is probably summoner, but you could make the argument these days that Red Mage is just as capable, instead of just being inferior.

The TLDR is that the Raise !@#%s with the caster role, and it needs either the axe or be put into the role actions with heavier restrictions.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

In 5.1, Summoner got a massive buff (Around 25-30%), and was frankly the best caster in the game until around 5.4 after it took several nerfs over that course of time.

There was a lot of complaining.

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the buff was precisely 11% more damage, it's just that the summoner was suddenly terribly broken on TEA because of the multitargets.

but after it they nerfed it several times, and buffed the others and the balancing at the end of shadowbringer was much better than currently.

The big problem is that the summoner got a pretty insane simplification in 5.1, and huge mobility gain, and too much DPS for what he was able to do.


but the 5.0 summoner didn't have much mobility if he wanted to maximize DPS without using ruin II, and had to double or triple weave all the time,
in 5.1 it was relatively easy after the rework.