Who knew the 6.15 Omega Quests… (Spoilers)

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Originally Posted by redheadturk

And whose fault is that? Oh yeah, Venat's, that's right.

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mainly meteons. without her the earth wouldnt have started to rot and an untold number of ancients wouldnt have died by their own creations and the remainder wouldnt have sacrificed 3/4th of the remaining numbers.

edit: kind of reminds me of horizons zero dawn project where zodiark is gaia and hydaelyns the failsafe.

No matter what your perspectives are on Amaurot, Hermes, Hades, and Venat are all members of Amaurotian society and have all held leadership positions within it. Everyone knows that their society was flawed, the only real difference is over what you think the reason is.

Except they could have counteracted Meteion had Venat, I dunno, told them what they were dealing with? her excuses never sat right with me.

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Originally Posted by redheadturk

Except they could have counteracted Meteion had Venat, I dunno, told them what they were dealing with? her excuses never sat right with me.

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No. You can't just say that without evidence, and all the evidence is on her side that she had to be careful about this.

We know that she can't just be completely open with this, because the general public would take this information extremely poorly. ...as we see very clearly when the End of Days actually comes and they take it extremely poorly. As to who else she could've told, the big problem is Hermes; as mentioned, if he learns what he wiped from his memory he's likely to fall into a depression that either makes him go turncoat or drop off completely--which is bad, because his knowledge of dynamis is required to make Zodiark, which is a necessary element of making sure the planet doesn't just get turbo-murdered. This also means she has to keep people who would tell Hermes in the dark--that counts out the 'tell the public' approach on a second count because you know protests would hit him eventually, but it also shuts Emet-Selch out of the picture because he's a known stickler for the process, and the process has already failed us. The same approach is probably why most of the Convocation was kept in the dark, to make sure nobody either told or ousted Hermes. We know she actually did try to contact Azem, so they were a potential (and probably good at keeping their mouth shut if they're anything like us), but they didn't pick up the proverbial phone for reasons intentionally left ambiguous.

So who else could she tell? Hythlodaeus, who may not have any relevant skills, and is also kind of a blabbermouth? Themis, who she may have never met, and probably got inducted into the Convocation soon after? Reasonably, the people she got together actually were the best people for the job--and we now know thanks to The Watcher that they were at least partially comprised of academics, who actually could have thought out this problem. Venat actually said that she didn't want the future we told her about to come to pass, so her and the brains trust she compiled probably did think out the problem put ahead of them. And they came to the Sundering decision, with a heavy heart--Venat knew that was the plan that worked in one timeline, but that also wasn't evidence that she could communicate to others, so they had to have come to and agreed to it through independent thought.

If you think they had a better option, you'd better have a damn good piece of evidence for it. You can argue with decent grounding that they might not have needed to take the fight to Meteion anyway, Zodiark would've held up indefinitely, but you can't argue that there was any other way to take that swing. Even Emet-Selch disagreed with you about that from beyond the grave.

The only excuse for Venat is maintaining the time loop. Everything else is conjecture.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I did find the confirmation that the Watcher's original self was part of Venat's faction and one of the sacrifices for Hydaelyn despite not even knowing her true intentions a bit troubling, though, even if his simulacrum was satisfied with the end result.

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Maybe I misunderstood you there but at least in the german version he bascially said that he was recreated by Hydaelyn and that she restricted his knowledge of the past. So for me that sounds like his old self probably knew what was happening (otherwise there would not be a need to limit it) and that only this recreation did not.

About the topic itself: I really enjoyed the story. Hearing Omegas side to all of it and seeing her changing throughout the quest was nice. Especially her interactions with Alpha. The scenes with Growingway were just gold and I laughed quite a bit at that part.

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Originally Posted by redheadturk

And whose fault is that? Oh yeah, Venat's, that's right.

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It was Meteon, and ultimately Hermes's fault. Venat didn't cause the final days.

Yes, the sundering and the death of most of the ancients was a terrible thing for all involved, but given that the other option was the death of everything and a barren planet? From a historical standpoint it's hard to fault Venat's decision. It wasn't a good choice, but it was best choice at the time.

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Originally Posted by Brightamethyst

It was Meteon, and ultimately Hermes's fault. Venat didn't cause the final days.

Yes, the sundering and the death of most of the ancients was a terrible thing for all involved, but given that the other option was the death of everything and a barren planet? From a historical standpoint it's hard to fault Venat's decision. It wasn't a good choice, but it was best choice at the time.

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The barren planet problem was no longer a thing after Zodiark's summoning. If she had told Emet what the deal was before the Final Days began they likely could have solved the issue and prevented the sacrifices that stopping them necessitated. And no, the sundering was the worst choice. Sharing the information she had with Emet so he could help with another solution that would have dealt with Meteion and fixed them permanently was the best choice and she didn't bother.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

No. You can't just say that without evidence, and all the evidence is on her side that she had to be careful about this.

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You don't get to have your cake and eat it too, demanding the hard evidence for any kind of alternative to the Sundering, and then base the entirety of your previous post decrying their society as "there probably was agony and strife around, we just didn't see it!" Obviously their society was not perfect, they have struggles in their lives, but I say more power to them then, it humanizes them more and we've just recently learned that being actually perfect is bad. Come on, even Hermes, the #1 Ancient hater says they go out of their way to make sure their creations do not suffer unduly. It's just that wasn't enough for him, because he knew they sensed their impending demise. I get you're searching for ammo where there is largely none to suit your narrative, but there has to be something better to use than that.

At the end of it all, and this is now further supported by this Omega quest, all of this is predicated on belief. Even the devs told us that Venat was acting according to her 'beliefs.' The Watcher here just told us that he 'believed' the Ancients would eventually fall, and that the WoL may very well disagree with this notion. There is nothing objectively correct about her decision, and thus people are free to speculate unaddressed alternatives all they like, because they really should have been addressed. They're not doing any greater amount of filling-in-holes with fanfiction than you are. Me, I'm content to just call it questionable writing, that so many things need fanon explanations on forums like this.

But speaking of a lack of evidence, Hermes is never accredited with Zodiark's construction. Never. Not one time. If he was at all vital to Zodiark's innerworkings, that is something that needs a thorough pointing out, because from where I'm sitting, he has no further involvement than any other Convocation member. A primal that is using an aether shield does not need a dynamis expert. All of his 'vital' knowledge of the root cause of the Final Days only remains vital because Venat chooses to keep under wraps that she learned basically everything valuable from him secondhand already. To be honest though, this is all from the 'rushing you out of Elpis' epilogue scene that I already have several very strong issues with.

But ahh, its been this long and people are still taking Emet-selch's 'our methods' line as him saying 'there was nothing our society ever could have done to combat this threat.' You know, the society that he still believes is superior and just got finished telling Meteion his answer as a representative of, for the sake of 'all lives, past and present.' That totally makes sense. Sure, let's just extrapolate that instead of taking it as him meaning, far more sensibly, the Ascians and the Rejoinings.

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Originally Posted by SpectrePhantasia

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^This. And the french translation [which is generally closer to the original Japanese in every single case] makes it clear he was talking more about them not getting to Ultima Thule using their methods than that they wouldn't have been able to save society with them.