Tired of Zenos (spoilers)

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Originally Posted by Nothv13

That's not neccessarily true either. It doesn't have to be black or white, good or evil.

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I prefer if it is. I don't trust writers trying to overcomplicate their narrative in terms of morality because usually I'll just disagree with their point of view anyway and end up seeing everybody as evil and it's not fun rooting for the least worst of the bads. It's why I hate the force alignment options in SWTOR.

And just to be clear, I think Emet is an evil character. Just because he is evil, it doesn't mean I cannot understand his reasoning, but also doesn't mean he is gray.

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Originally Posted by Edax

No the rebels wouldn't have to be evil. Not wanting to be under an autocracy doesn't make you evil. Not every conflict needs to be lumped into a good side and evil side. For instance in an Eastern style story like Princess Mononoke, it's human outcasts fighting with the animals of the forest, both have their motivations to fight but neither side is righteous or evil.

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When you create a conflict unnecessarily, then you are evil regardless of your reasoning. If you do not wish to be under a certain form of government, you work within the system to secede from the empire (assuming you are part of a political entity with the same view of government) or you (individually) leave the empire.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I prefer nuance to outright villainy. Though if I'm going to have to stomach the latter, then I at least want charisma and entertainment. It's like Joffrey and Ramsay from Game of Thrones. Sure, they had very few - if any - redeeming qualities, but they were amusing to watch in their own right. Zenos' contribution to the plot outside of the base Stormblood MSQ has been less than satisfying. He's literally spent most of his time sitting around complaining about being bored as other, more interesting characters have been sidelined for his sake.

That he has inexplicably become the focus of both Garlemald's story and the Ascian story feels undeserved, as if he were simply put there to wrap up both as quickly as possible. It doesn't help that he's hardly threatening in any way to me. If he actually killed someone close to the Warrior of Light in an effort to enrage him and get a good fight? At least that'd make sense. Yet he hasn't and likely won't because the story has, of late, been very averse to lasting consequences and threat unless it's either a throwaway character or a sympathetic antagonist being killed off.

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Part of my issue with him in 4.0 is the lack of consequences for losing to him.

In the attack on RR one named character I can remember dies, but Fordola killed him not Zenos. The attack was even Fordola's idea from what I remember.

Then he beats the WOL and injures Yshtola. The former isn't important because he gets bored and has his forces withdraw and the rebels, while bruised, don't even have to fall back from their base afterwards. And Ysthola's injury is just a means of having the plot focus on other characters for a bit and not anything serious.

Then in Doma, we expose our presence in Othard to attack him and fail. But....not only does nothing bad happen other than bruising our egos, but it plays out in our favor. Because it leads to Grynwaht showing up in the Steppe jus tin time to help us rally the Xaela against the Empire. I don't think anyone really calls you and Yugiri out for doing it seriously.

I'm not saying he needs to kill half the Scions or something but when losing to him doesn't really matter, it's hard to fear it happening again in the future. And the actual boss fights against him in these two instances feel slow and tedious because of his inflated health bar. The fights aren't difficult, it doesn't feel like we're scrambling to hold our own against a superior foe. It's just an easy fight with an arbitrary 'okay you lose now' cutscene put in. So for me at least, it doesn't get the emotional impact of feeling outmatched they were probably aiming for and the fights may as well have just been cutscenes of him beating us if that's all they were going to amount to anyway.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

He's literally spent most of his time sitting around complaining about being bored as other, more interesting characters have been sidelined for his sake.

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Zenos is the one who's been sidelined, that's why he is bored and waiting. Even now, Fandaniel has taken more of the spotlight than Zenos.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

Part of my issue with him in 4.0 is the lack of consequences for losing to him.

In the attack on RR one named character I can remember dies, but Fordola killed him not Zenos. The attack was even Fordola's idea from what I remember.

Then he beats the WOL and injures Yshtola. The former isn't important because he gets bored and has his forces withdraw and the rebels, while bruised, don't even have to fall back from their base afterwards. And Ysthola's injury is just a means of having the plot focus on other characters for a bit and not anything serious.

Then in Doma, we expose our presence in Othard to attack him and fail. But....not only does nothing bad happen other than bruising our egos, but it plays out in our favor. Because it leads to Grynwaht showing up in the Steppe jus tin time to help us rally the Xaela against the Empire. I don't think anyone really calls you and Yugiri out for doing it seriously.

I'm not saying he needs to kill half the Scions or something but when losing to him doesn't really matter, it's hard to fear it happening again in the future. And the actual boss fights against him in these two instances feel slow and tedious because of his inflated health bar. The fights aren't difficult, it doesn't feel like we're scrambling to hold our own against a superior foe. It's just an easy fight with an arbitrary 'okay you lose now' cutscene put in. So for me at least, it doesn't get the emotional impact of feeling outmatched they were probably aiming for and the fights may as well have just been cutscenes of him beating us if that's all they were going to amount to anyway.

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It'd be nice if any of the big villains/antagonists lately inflicted some consequences on those facing them. I suspect we might see some in 6.0, because both Zenos and Fandaniel are being put forth as irredeemable (therefore loss of sympathy is a non issue) and they have an excess supply of NPCs few people care about, so easy way to score some deaths and claim those are consequences, even if they're minor. Anyway, I agree with all that. I don't really care for him as a foe. Fandaniel could be interesting, because of his hidden story, but Zenos is lacking by comparison and, while there's some mysteries surrounding him, he personally does little to intrigue me.

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Originally Posted by MoofiaBossVal

I like Zenos.

I'm tired of the mantra that "villains must be DEEP or complicated". I'm tired of the victimization of evil where villains have to have tragic backstories or be sympathetic.

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Agreed. There's nothing wrong with the occasional complex villain, like Emit Selch. (Sinestro during the Geoff Johns era of Green Lantern is another well done example) But for the most part I don't want a villain I'm supposed to empathize with or feel sorry for. Zenos: Mad dog that just needs to be put down.

I don't like Zenos. He's boring and tunnel-visioned. Him being in EW is one of the very few disappointing things I have in that expansion. We'll just have to see what he has in store there, but if giving my opinion right now, he should have stayed dead.

With any luck, he'll be the stepping stone to the actual end boss/threat. :D

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Originally Posted by linayar

When you create a conflict unnecessarily, then you are evil regardless of your reasoning.

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And who is the arbiter of what conflict is unnecessary or not? Were the animals wrong to aggressively defend the forest? Were the humans wrong to try to make a living in the forest to defend themselves? And who truly started this conflict in Princess Mononoke? Who is the evil party in the conflict?

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Originally Posted by linayar

I prefer if it is. I don't trust writers trying to overcomplicate their narrative in terms of morality because usually I'll just disagree with their point of view anyway and end up seeing everybody as evil and it's not fun rooting for the least worst of the bads..

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Just because you disagree with their viewpoint does not mean you should automatically see them as evil.

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Originally Posted by Ransom

Agreed. There's nothing wrong with the occasional complex villain, like Emit Selch. (Sinestro during the Geoff Johns era of Green Lantern is another well done example) But for the most part I don't want a villain I'm supposed to empathize with or feel sorry for. Zenos: Mad dog that just needs to be put down.

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Not every villain needs to be sympathetic or have a relatable motive. But Zenos just has nothing for me to latch onto. It's all relative, but Kefka, the Emperor, many iterations of the Joker etc have a level of entertainment to them that makes them interesting even if they're not complicated or sympathetic. Zenos personality wise IMO is just kind of boring. And because he never really struggles with anything his parts of the story also tend to be dull or predictable. For example the whole thing of him trying to get his body back, could have been great if he had to be strategic, find ways to manipulate and work his way toward his true body. But he never has to. He just effortlessly makes his way to the capital, beats Elidibus and forces him to abandon Zenos' body and flee, and gets what he wants with no real effort. The only time I can recall him having to actually work and struggle for something was in his short story, not even in game.

Zenos was a terrible bad guy, he was impressing by his relentless power during Stormblood's MSQ, but in the end, with his selfish aim to have fun in front of a powerful enemy, and making a complete mockery of the symbolism of the sacred katana of the samurai spirit, just by the fact that he had 3 of them. No need for 2 swords for the samurai's code. The nito style (2 swords) invented by Miyamoto Musashi was considered dishonourable before he was later taken as a national hero.

His end was +/- epic by his fighting, and he committed suicide instead of assuming. And SE thought he was too cool, as a villain let's make him come back thanks to the scenarium. He transcends death thanks to a technological copy of the power of the WoL.

And here he is as the headliner for Endwalker, it doesn't hype me at all, and even less with the other old joker type cheap joker, having as appearance and body that of Stormblood's worst second villain...

It's really not great. SE showed us that he was able to make cool baddies with great ideals for their races in Shadowbringer, but here...

No hype, although I'm curious to know what the WoL is going to do on the moon !