Speed run instances are killing PLD

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Originally Posted by myoozek

The fact that so many parties participating in these events are so inclined for a stacked party, to me, indicates their interest to be not in the challenge of fighting, or the joys of such challenge, but almost solely interested in the drops alone. That is to say, if the quickest route to (me) and (item) is (strat), then let's do that. If you find yourself surrounded by people not wanting to experiment with different classes and jobs, then find another group.

•Players wanting the quickest and easiest method of winning (and not experimenting) - a result of watching how everyone else does it and flocking to that particularly strat religiously

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QFT

And it spreads to the forums. I know PLDs who do just fine on speed run in all content. I know War who don't. And so on and so on. I also know DD who can steal hate off either job and ones who can't. If everyone would focus on the party they are with, rather then the party they were with or saw or heard about, I think you would find that any content on this game can be done with multiple combinations and skill levels.

Stats don't replace thinking. Ever. Find an LS that wants to play with you. Not your job.

If you know someone is weak in an area, plan for the weakness to occur and compensate. If you know someone is strong in an area, plan for the boost and play it up.

Is really very basic group concepts.

I think the PLD job might need to be entierly redesigned. Maybe give it a role more along the line of party support where eating all the damage and enmity would not be its only/primary purpose. Change it in a manner where it would make sense to have more than one in a party.

I never liked the PLD/NIN concept in XI. Hated it. If players have to rely on dubious tricks, extreme stats boost, constantly unorthodox gameplay, begging, etc. to make a job relevant in a group, then the job needs to be reengineered. Its kind of extreme, but i dont see how any scotch tape patch would help PLD without wrecking something else and going back to status quo.

Ultimately this is my own 2 cents. I dont think SE can and will do something along the line of my suggestion.

The main flaw of the speed run, it make only one metric matter for success. That metric is damage. More damage means faster we can kill everything. Making a team with less damage but more survivability, crowd control, or anything else; is not important. Only damage and killing the monster ASAP is. Paladins and dragoons are hurt the most because they have strengths outside of damage. Why take a paladin with support skills, that doesn't increase our damage.

I've played many MMOs and team based game; I have never seen stacking this bad. The stacking for highest damage resists freedom of game play in ways I'm just shocked to see. I have never had such a push in a game to maximize damage. Like it or not, unless SE does something about it, this will hurt the game. The current system rewards stacking the highest damage classes for that fight. You even can change your class mid-raid to fit the fight.

I agree speed run do hurt this game and the paladin's class playability. The paladin has fantastic abilities and strengths, sadly they don't fit the mentality encouraged by making speed run the only way to get all the gear.

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Originally Posted by fusional

yes. it's all about enmity. my LS uses warrior tanks simply because their enmity generation is much faster and higher than that of paladins, and we *need that* when our monks and blms are doing 145-160 dps on mistress.

sure, the extra damage a warrior brings to the table is nice, and that extra damage is part of what makes their enmity generation better- but that just means square needs to adjust paladin's enmity generation to comparable levels. the recent changes were a good boost, but still not enough. almost makes me think they need to give paladin some kind of native enmity aura or something.

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I doubt just adding passive enmity would solve paladin's problems. The tank can't be doing such little damage in this kind of game. If Paladin did even 75% of a warrior's single target damage (while tanking) that would be a huge boost. This of course includes proper use of combos, etc. If Riot Blade were usable from the front that might help things a bit.

And of course even with improved damage/enmity, paladin is still way more vulnerable to magical/bighuge attacks because of lower HP and the same mitigation.

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Originally Posted by ChickNorris

And it spreads to the forums.

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Not referring to me are you chick? :P

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Originally Posted by fusional

yes. it's all about enmity. my LS uses warrior tanks simply because their enmity generation is much faster and higher than that of paladins, and we *need that* when our monks and blms are doing 145-160 dps on mistress.

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Who says we're not already playing FFXI? >.>

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Originally Posted by myoozek

I firmly believe class stacking is a combination of two things:
•Players wanting the quickest and easiest method of winning (and not experimenting) - a result of watching how everyone else does it and flocking to that particularly strat religiously and,
•Players sucking at their jobs

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So SE gets no part of the blame then? Just the players? Lol to that idea.

You might try these two:
- poor class balance
- unimaginative encounter/boss design

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Originally Posted by Klive

The main flaw of the speed run, it make only one metric matter for success. That metric is damage. More damage means faster we can kill everything. Making a team with less damage but more survivability, crowd control, or anything else; is not important. Only damage and killing the monster ASAP is. Paladins and dragoons are hurt the most because they have strengths outside of damage. Why take a paladin with support skills, that doesn't increase our damage.

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Except the metric isn't damage. The metric IS teamwork and execution (as shown in the heavily-cited DoW video with 7 jobs). Classes with damage and good crowd control just so happen to lie along the path of least resistance. If the metric was damage then people would not be having difficulty running this instance in 25mins with PUG groups. Oh and then thread would not have been made. If only.

Please think before posting!

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Originally Posted by GreyJorildyn

Except the metric isn't damage. The metric IS teamwork and execution (as shown in the heavily-cited DoW video with 7 jobs). Classes with damage and good crowd control just so happen to lie along the path of least resistance. If the metric was damage then people would not be having difficulty running this instance in 25mins with PUG groups. Oh and then thread would not have been made. If only.

Please think before posting!

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Thank you, I do think before posting. That was a needless comment.

Teamwork is a metric in an MMO? Thank you for telling me. Anyways, yes teamwork is required for any group based activity. Teamwork has to be there for anything to be successful. Damage is the only metric that people care about. This why people try to maximize it for faster runs. Yes it is possible to run it without stacking, hence the video, but doesn't mean it is the fastest. People want the fastest, hence the the damage being the only metric.

And so your statement which was:

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The main flaw of the speed run, it make only one metric matter for success. That metric is damage.

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is therefor false, and you agree that teamwork is important.

"Damage" is what PUGs prioritize to support their grand delusion of success. It is not necessarily what they care about, so much as a false measurement for how well they believe they will do. You could say I am splitting hairs or speaking semantics, but there is a difference, and it is important to highlight the distinction between them.

That was my my point.