Emet-Selch Is Not That Tragic

Intent and execution also don't always line up.

SE probably intended for the first two Zenos fights for example to feel intimidating and hopeless but they only felt tedious to me and failed to impact any sense of dread. Authorial intent only gets you so far because the impression one tries to give doesn't always work out.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

And if you only look at the perspective of the characters themselves then someone like Zenos is a hero too! Seeing how he sees life, he quite right in what he does and is not evil at all. And no he was never meant to be seen as tragic hero. Even Yoshida made it clear afterwards that the Ascians are still the bad guys. Just now bad guys with at least some motives.

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I think you're deliberately missing my point, given that Zenos has never been presented as a sympathetic character or a hero. Emet-Selch had actual motives and plenty of tragedy in his life. He simply wanted to bring back his loved ones and restore his homeland - no matter the cost. I think a lot of characters would do the same in his position and of those who claim otherwise, a significant portion would be lying to themselves.

It was always clear they had motives - they were just opaque. However, from their perspective they did not want to see their world and all the souls in it enervated (also why they don't see any lifeforms resulting from this as equivalent to what once was), and probably see Hydaelyn as parasitic on aether intended for Zodiark and restoring their fallen, so I can understand why they are willing to take the drastic actions they engage in. Whatever led to the disagreement that culminated in Hydaelyn's summoning, the fragmented world that came after is something they wish to reverse. Granted the writers could just insert tempering as the cause behind it all, as poor a decision as I'd consider that to be, but for now it's up in the air.

I think it is simply disingenuous to pretend that Zenos is in a similar spot to them, when his goal is literally to amuse himself and there is currently precious little to suggest his backstory will mirror Yotsuyu's. The purpose he appears to be serving is little more than having the hubris to allow the authors a way to bring Zodiark into the story through means besides Elidibus.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Granted the writers could just insert tempering as the cause behind it all, as poor a decision as I'd consider that to be, but for now it's up in the air.

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He is an unreliable narrator at best, but Emet-Selch's dialogue implied they knew they would become thralls of Zodiark to some degree, didn't it? In either case, they certainly still had free will when they chose to become so. He's no Zenos, his base motivation was sympathetic, but his subsequent actions are objectively monstrous.

Square should've revisited General Leo for inspiration if they wanted to do a tragic adversary that would let them toss the word "hero" around.

I have no idea why anybody is trying to spin Emet as any kind of a hero. He's tragic, sure. But tragedy and sympathy does not a hero make. He's stuck trying to bring back a world that is long gone in the hope it'll bring back what he remembers. Doing so requires genocide. There is nothing heroic about that no matter how you spin it.

But I guess Foxy Grandpa can do no wrong because him sassy and make a joke and doesn't afraid of anything. Gotta stan the genocidal geriatric! Don't get me wrong, he's a good character! Very well written. Possibly the best part of Shadowbringers. If the circumstances were different, a character like him could have been a good addition to the regular cast! But the chips didn't fall that way. His motivations are repugnant, no matter how "noble" they may seem on the surface. He's not, in any way, a good character.

Zenos is just a terrible, boring character all around. He was by far the least compelling part of Stormblood, and remains as such because his motivation as presented is so hopelessly shallow that even a puddle looks like the Mariana Trench by comparison.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

Intent and execution also don't always line up.

SE probably intended for the first two Zenos fights for example to feel intimidating and hopeless but they only felt tedious to me and failed to impact any sense of dread. Authorial intent only gets you so far because the impression one tries to give doesn't always work out.

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The sense of dread is felt by your supporting cast, who are in total disbelief that even you stood no chance against the crown prince. When you're character who has been so heavily relied on and used as a weapon to take down the biggest threats up to this point fails to deliver, that hopelessness transfers over to everyone in the Reach. The next course of action didn't even involve Zenos at all. They were just like, "Let's go where he isn't."

I am not quite sure what people were expecting out of Zenos. But it feels like the disappointment is very similar to that expressed from his father, in which case for all intents and purposes, he is doing what he's supposed to be doing. Zenos has been established as a threat to anyone who gets in the way of his objective, so he is a wildcard as we clearly see at the conclusion of 5.0. He's one dimensional for sure, but so is Jaws and Jason Voorhees. While I wouldn't put them in the category of greatest villains either, what is common with them is when they're around, they are seriously giving everyone in their vicinity a really bad day.

Maybe I'm just a sucker for narcs, but he's pizza to me. Of course he's not on the same level or near it with someone like Emet, but he still keeps me entertained. The only time I found him boring was when he, himself was bored out of his mind.

I felt he was tragic.

1) He and a small ragtag team are the last vestiges of a once great culture.
2) Many of the ones from this culture he lived with died or were split across several worlds.
2) He is an immortal who experienced the loss of a parent outliving their own children and their children's children several times over.
3) He is an immortal who lost any spouse he formed a true connection with.
4) He tragically dies to the WoL and his last wish is for him and his kind to be remembered by us.
5) He also creates tragedy onto others by causing umbral eras to occur from both the shard and the source that would be affected.

Now one actually caring about the above is different than acknowledging tragic elements within the character.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Someone (presumably either Emet or one of the fabricated Amaurotines, can't remember) specifically mentions a "noise from the earth" causing the Amaurotines to lose control of their creation magic and create the monstrosities that caused their downfall. I wouldn't be so sure they are the ones to blame for their fate. The game was intentionally vague enough about what this "noise" was that I suspect that it will be revisited at some point in the future of the story.

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I'm wondering if part of Hydaelyn's reason for splitting the world was because it in some way could/would prevent whatever caused the Terminus from acting out again. Sort of like what was done in Final Fantasy V to seal the power of the void (splitting the world in two with the rift caught between them.) In rejoining the worlds the Ascians may well be at risk of allowing the vague source of the catastrophe to act out again.

That said, with it being a noise my mind wanders to Zenos and his "Resonance." He seems to intend to bend Zodiark to his will (and has already shown to be capable of taking control of creations such as Shinryuu) so part of me wonders if what he and his researchers have tapped into isn't entirely the Echo but maybe also a bit of something else. The Echo itself is also somewhat suspect because of the reference to the noise that caused creation magicks to rebel.

On yet another side note, I got to wondering about the First Worm in The Burn (the incredibly massive worm skeleton toward the end.) That "First Beast" in Amaurot was a worm, but it was only as big as we were despite everything in the city being much larger by comparison to everywhere else. I'm wondering if that first worm skeleton might not be the remains of the ACTUAL "First Beast" that spawned during the catastrophe.




Sorry for the tangents. I've been sitting on these for a while and felt that a discussion of Emet-Selch and the Ancients was a good place to bring some of them up.

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Originally Posted by Puksi

...but his subsequent actions are objectively monstrous.

Square should've revisited General Leo for inspiration if they wanted to do a tragic adversary that would let them toss the word "hero" around.

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Objectively monstrous to us. And I don't think anyone tossed the hero tag around in-game.

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Originally Posted by IttyBitty

I have no idea why anybody is trying to spin Emet as any kind of a hero.

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Anyone who does so is probably misguided, but not outright wrong. Remember the old saying: every good villain is a hero of his own story. Emet might not define himself as a hero, but does things that he believes to be right and justified. And its not like he doesn't stop and question his deeds every now and then either. He mentioned regularly "testing" the new races if they are worthy enough to give up his quest. And he basically does so with us, as he could've (arguably) easily won just by not confronting us in the Tempest.

The most concise explanation is made by Emet himself:

"Buy yes, moral relativism and all that. Case in point - I do not consider you to be truly alive. Ergo I will not be guillty of murder if I kill you."

(possibly my favorite line from him overall too)

Zenos confuses me personally, because as he's written he's your bog standard 'force of nature' archetype that is there to provide a suitable impediment to our heroes but never meant to stand as an ideological foil. For however boring he was in Stormblood he played his role pretty well and had they left him dead following the climax of 4.0 nothing of value would honestly have been lost from the story. Yet I guess someone on the writing team really likes him, or the fanbase feedback was better than I thought, because not only did they bring him back they're trying to set him up as some odd foil to our Warriors of Light - while still keeping his old, archetype in place with very little being expanded upon that we've thus seen. Which don't get me wrong, if they expand his character and do it well I'll happily retract my current impression of him. But right now he's just kinda 'there' and is more interesting as meme fodder than as an actual character.

I think Zenos' deficiencies stand out more because Emet Selch /is/ a proper foil for our characters. His ideals stand in direct opposition to our own, and yet he is written in such a way that many a people could easily see themselves falling into his shoes if put through similar circumstances. He's both an enemy, monstrous in his ideals and tempered so that he cannot even see his own folly, and yet also a cautionary tale for our heroes about how the road to hell is often paved with good intentions. While it's still too early to see how his actions have fully shaped the Scions and the Warrior of Light, I'd be amazed if his influence isn't felt for many more story beats to come. Unlike a lot of the other villains which just kinda petered out and have turned into something of an 'in-joke' within game lore and in the fandom, like Lahabrea and especially Asahi.