Dark Knight Media Tour Feedback

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Originally Posted by shao32

Based on the media tour skill set, it's easy to see DRK becomes a 1 combo job that throw a oGCD to don't overcap MP and have all his oGCD simplified aca carve and spit and abyssal drain substituting dark passenger and salted heart.

Then we have the gauge mechanic with its a clear copy paste of WAR gauge mechanic, 90s recast delirium the same of inner release, bloodspiller it's just fell cleave and Quietus it's just decimate working exactly the same, all the flow of DRK around his gauge have been removed and it's exactly the same as the WAR with the exception WAR have direct hit/crits and DRK gain a bit of MP.

Outside of that DRK don't have anything, it's become the most simple tank and the only deep the job will have will be TBN and his potential 500p waste Compared to WAR and PLD that have more combos, extra mechanics like infuriate and the new buffed fell cleaves and the new finish move on requiem cast with PLD apart of other stuff

Yes I consider DRK a poor copy of WAR in literally 50% of his gameplay and the other half its just extreme simple to manage.

All is suggest to change but we all know the media tour is the final build and only will change numbers except we express our disapprove like WHM did in the past and still they almost didn't change at the end.

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I asked if you have a source for drk having "less deep" than war. You just listed a buncha subjective opinions about the gameplay. Were all free to love or hate a class design. Do you have a source to supports your statement that war does more damage?

One complaint that I feel needs be leveled is that PLD/WAR/GNB all receive the AoE rotation combo skill at 40, with PLD and WAR receiving completely new skills on top of what they will be getting from 70+. Why does DRK have to wait until level 72? Is it because of Edge/Flood?

I saw somewhere that the gamerescape tooltips were wrong, with regards to Edge/Flood of Darkness/Shadow. The tooltips alone seem to imply that Edge/Flood *upgrade from ___ of Darkness into ___ of shadow, whereas the trait Darkside Mastery implies Flood of Darkness/Shadow upgrades into Edge of Darkness/Shadow at level 74. (i.e. the skills tooltips and the related traits tooltip are incongruent with each other)
I personally hope they go with Edge of Darkness/Shadow for single target, and Flood of Darkness/Shadow for AoE, just for aesthetic purposes and for general sensibility to me.

I sincerely hope they do something about living dead. Having the ONLY skill in the game that punishes you if someone else fails your skills mechanic is poor design.

Beyond more wants, these things are things I would expect to be addressed if not on launch, then before we have a repeat of 4.x.

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Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

One complaint that I feel needs be leveled is that PLD/WAR/GNB all receive the AoE rotation combo skill at 40, with PLD and WAR receiving completely new skills on top of what they will be getting from 70+. Why does DRK have to wait until level 72? Is it because of Edge/Flood?

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The Dark Knight doesn't need the combo to meet level 50 AOE damage requirements. Unleash+FoD equals or exceeds the damage output of the Provenience, Mythril Tempest and Demon Slaughter combos.

Sadly for me I don't want to repeat the same thinking (for myself) as SB DRK, I kept telling myself "it'll get better!" and then 4.3 comes along and we finally get some changes that shoulda happened months ago yet WARs can cry out in 4.0-4.1 and get a fix almost immediately. I'm tired of throwing away my favorite class yet again for another tank that's just as fast and fun as it's HW variant as I'm going GNB, both my tank buddies are going WAR and PLD and there's just no reason for me to go DRK as its just so unfun.

Maybe in late 5.X they'll do another "revamp" but as it stands I'm tired of seeing great responses like Chrono, Lyth, Siez and all of the big contributors as well as the Q&A on many of the live letters/functions but just nothing, I'm sad to hang up the greatsword again in favor of a Gunblade but not much I can do when the class is getting worse every xpac.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

The Dark Knight doesn't need the combo to meet level 50 AOE damage requirements. Unleash+FoD equals or exceeds the damage output of the Provenience, Mythril Tempest and Demon Slaughter combos.

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Without the combo you will generate no mana and no blood, so you will not have the ressources to use FoS much, or Quietus, until you reach lvl 72.

They are further destroying DRKs aoe in low level...

In 3.0 we could aoe at lvl 35, when we learned Bloodprice.

In 4.0 they reduced the potency of Unleash, so we had to wait until lvl 56 when we learn Abyssal Drain to deal some damage, but it's not until lvl 64 when we learn Quietus with it's mana regen when we actually can make some use of the aoe.

And now in 5.0 they moved it further back, lvl 72 to generate mana and blood in aoe so we can actually use the tools we have learned long before... including TBN in 70 dungeons.

Until then it's Unleash spam. And we probably can't keep up Darkside when we do that...

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Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

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Originally Posted by Tint

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From what I have seen, WAR's AoE combo doesn't generate resources until lvl74 and they get the Mastering the Beast trait.
PLD's AoE rotation also is very incomplete until lvl.72 when they get Holy Circle so they have an AoE to use under Requiescat which leaves the MP generated by their combo fairly useless for AoE until then.
GNB doesn't appear to have a situation like the other tanks where it gets a major peice of it's AoE kit in the 70s but it's traits seem potentially incomplete and there may be a trait similar to WAR's that we haven't seen.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

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I believe the "less deep" comment they made was actually supposed to refer to depth, as in they are claiming that DRK has less depth to it's game-play than the other tanks, and not "deeps" as in dps.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

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I know the history of that whole debacle, I was there from the very beginning of it pointing out what I saw as issues with DRK. Heck, I was there from DRK's 3.0 release pointing out many of the issues the job had that were carried over into 4.0. I was at times the lone voice bringing up specific DRK issues that others only later caught on to. I'm not just familiar with it, I was a part of it.

The difference between then and now, or in some cases not so different, is that fewer people seem to be actually bothering to look at and think about things, and trying to understand them. Instead people are being quite quick to jump straight to pitchforks and torches because of a fear of being disappointed again and a lack of patience to see if something is actually okay even though it may not be exactly what they have decided in their minds that it should be.

People can and should point out what they see as functional deficiencies of the 5.0 DRK, but they need to do a bit of legwork too so that their assertion is actually based on properly vetted information and rationale, not knee-jerk emotional reactions.

People are also free to have and express their opinions on the potential feel of things, but they should frame it as such, opinions with reasoning to back them up instead of the hard-line blanket statements that have been getting tossed around. Say something like "I personally don't like X aspect of the proposed 5.0 DRK because I feel ... yadda yadda" instead of "DRK is trash! It's been dumbed down! It has no depth! It's just a trash-tier WAR clone!". Positing subjective feelings as objective facts needs to be avoided.

I have zero problem with people taking issue with things, even if I disagree. My problem lies with the disparity between the amount of noise being raised, and the amount of thought, research and reasoning being applied.

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Originally Posted by Tint

Without the combo you will generate no mana and no blood, so you will not have the ressources to use FoS much, or Quietus, until you reach lvl 72.

They are further destroying DRKs aoe in low level...

In 3.0 we could aoe at lvl 35, when we learned Bloodprice.

In 4.0 they reduced the potency of Unleash, so we had to wait until lvl 56 when we learn Abyssal Drain to deal some damage, but it's not until lvl 64 when we learn Quietus with it's mana regen when we actually can make some use of the aoe.

And now in 5.0 they moved it further back, lvl 72 to generate mana and blood in aoe so we can actually use the tools we have learned long before... including TBN in 70 dungeons.

Until then it's Unleash spam. And we probably can't keep up Darkside when we do that...

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The only way DRK will get to regen mana in low level content will be Blood Weapon, but that too is now inferior to what it used to be, lasting only 10s and having a 60s recast.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

I asked if you have a source for drk having "less deep" than war. You just listed a buncha subjective opinions about the gameplay. Were all free to love or hate a class design. Do you have a source to supports your statement that war does more damage?

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my apologize, i did mean depth, sometimes i mess with english and i didn't notice, performance comparations doesn't matter thight now until the final release yeah, i was talking about the new gameplay and not really the impact compared to other jobs, sorry again.

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

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im actually pretty calm after the initial disappointment, looking at DRK it's going to be a 1 combo tank like now yes but without anything that separe his gameplay from the other 2.

don't get me wrong im not complaing DRK gauge it's a bar like the other 2, no, what i complaing the way DRK work around that bar it's being removed and replaced to inner release and sorry but can pass years and i will find it ilogical and silly no matter how much non DRK mains want to try to convince me, there was a thing that make DRK diferent and it's gone, the gameplay similarities betwen the 3 tanks are so big it's not fun anymore for me and thanks god we get GNB to break the rule.

so i guess i have to apologize for being so insistent about this but im extremly unhappy with what i see and i want to SE change it instead to dealt with it 2 years more, i don't want to stay using a single combo with no depth and a bunch of oGBD with a ocasional blood spiller or shadow until delirium is up, bcs that what DRK it's going to do.

im going to push no matter what to minimun get rid of this silly version of inner release, bcs apart of don't want it i find ilogical 3 tanks have this silly mechanic of press a buff and spam 5 time in a row you bloodspiller/fell cleav/holy spirit thing, i didn't like WAR and PLD much bcs of that but i respect ppl love this, but no for DRK, it's not a DRK thing and shouldn't be implemented to the job, bloodspiller is not specially fun to spam.

Ah my bad shao. Reading comprehension fail on my part. Sometimes deep actually just means....deep. Internet slang on the brain. Dont apologize, you wrote it properly, i just misread it.

To be fair, there's not a whole lot of "thought, research, or reasoning" you can apply to some of the changes. They're that bad.