Disappointed in the turn the Garlean Empire has taken

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Except, the bolded part simply isn't true. Shinryu was summoned in response to Garlean occupation, long after Ala Mhigo had been subjugated. The Eorzeans left well enough alone, and in response they were faced with probably the worst primal summoned thus far. (Certainly the most violent, but given Shinryu was sustained by a desire for vengeance as opposed to faith, that's not surprising.) Be it through unwarranted aggression or brutal oppression, the Empire's methods are conducive to summoning. (Exactly as planned.)

I can't fault them for trying to find a more permanent solution, but the reality of the situation is that there simply may not be a permanent solution beyond killing anyone and anything capable of manipulating aether. Even if Gaius used the Ultima Weapon to capture all the extant primals in Eorzea, who's to stop them from summoning new ones? What of the Eorzeans, who in response to their plight could end up unintentionally summoning another primal Phoenix-style, except too powerful and destructive for the Ultima Weapon to handle? To say nothing of how the Ultima Weapon could end up being far more destructive than any primal save Bahamut (and maybe Shinryu) if given more primal chow...

No, the Eorzeans' system of "deal with them as they come up" isn't perfect, and something more permanent would be better. That said, what they're doing now is probably the best approach they have (engage the beast tribes in peaceful negotiations, try to trade their crystals away so they can't hoard enough for a summon), and as others have pointed out the whole issue is the Empire's fault in the first place (though I need to add that it's only their indirect fault - Middy screwed the pooch on that one by coiling around the Agrius and roaring to showboat when he should have been getting the kupo away from the exploding ceruleum engines...); summons were extremely rare to impossible prior to the assault on Silvertear (in Eorzea, at least).

The Empire's methods do not make things better, be it short-term (Lakshmi) or long-term (Shinryu).

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You know that makes me wonder lore wise if the Ultima Weapon could have absorbed Shinryu or not. I'm not even entirely sure if Shinryu beats it in terms of raw destructive power given we required divine intervention to survive the Ultima spell and had to destroy it before it could cast it again. I'm not sure even Shinryu could destroy the ultima weapon if it had to tank an Ultima to the face.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Except, the bolded part simply isn't true. Shinryu was summoned in response to Garlean occupation, long after Ala Mhigo had been subjugated. The Eorzeans left well enough alone, and in response they were faced with probably the worst primal summoned thus far.

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I'm incline to disagree with that, at least partly. Shinryu was not summoned by subjugated players. Pretty much all the means for his summoning were obtained in Eorzea, as well as a sizable number of his (unwitting) followers. The whole plan was certainly hatched by a displaced refugee, but the whole plan was also hatched and executed from the Eorzean side of the boarder, not the Garlean one, and was largely possible in part due to Eorzean negligence.

If the Eorzeans were better at managing aether batteries/crystals, if they were better at cracking down on what essentially was an extremist group, Ilberd would not have the means to summon Shinryu. Both those things are something Garlemald seems to crack down on pretty heavily, certainly a contributing factor in there seemingly being no summonings within their boarders; Shinryu was right on the boarder and Lakshmi I'd say was too, given the boarder was shifting at that point. Heck, I'd slap "on the boarder" in with "during conquest", personally. The conquest isn't over until there is no boarder, after all.

There's still no indication of Garlemald having any Primal problem within their boarders, which is honestly something I'd like to see addressed. Either the Ascians simply don't provide the means to summon in conquered regions, because why would they, or Garlemald does a good job of locking down the means, probably a bit of both. I'd actually like it if there were summonings in their territories though, just because we really haven't seen them dealing with Primals all that much and I think there are some interesting stories that could be told regarding that sort of thing. The games been far too eager to just paint Garlemald as a stereotypical evil empire. Even if it's obviously the Ascians plan, having a scenario in which say, a region had a Primal problem (because Ascians) pre-Garlemald and they actually solved that, perhaps earning them some support (as planned by Ascians). It makes for a more interesting narrative IMO, as would looking at how they deal with the problem, Magitek strikes me as an efficient and safe means, more so when mirrored with the Eorzean Alliances methods, which hasn't really been questioned since 2.0...

You trying to say the Wol and Aymeric should have known that Accians and "dead" people from another shard would be able to go and collect eyes of a dead wyrm from something that would naturally destroy over time anything else living in it? Sure, those who had held Ildberd's leash should have either held it better or delt with him or kept track of him. Though he did seem to be a slippery fish.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

You trying to say the Wol and Aymeric should have known that Accians and "dead" people from another shard would be able to go and collect eyes of a dead wyrm from something that would naturally destroy over time anything else living in it? Sure, those who had held Ildberd's leash should have either held it better or delt with him or kept track of him. Though he did seem to be a slippery fish.

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"Throw them away so we don't know what happens to them" is a terrible plan compared to "Hold onto them so we can seal them or destroy them ourselves", shouldn't leave something like that up to chance. If anything we're lucky they just fell into the chasm, given the events going on I'd have been worried about one of Nidhoggs brood swooping in to snatch them up... Throwing something important to an avian enemy into the air to rid yourself of them... Was a foolish plan for a number of reasons...

But that's only half the issue. The Eorzean Alliance failing to track down Ilberd to bring him to justice, and letting the "Griffin" go about recruiting inside their territory? That's a whole other issue.

Really though, Nidhoggs Eyes being involved kind of makes Shinryu a whole special case in my opinion... Exceptional circumstances lead to Shinryu being summoned, hardly the norm in Primals brought about to challenge the empire.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

"Throw them away so we don't know what happens to them" is a terrible plan compared to "Hold onto them so we can seal them or destroy them ourselves", shouldn't leave something like that up to chance. If anything we're lucky they just fell into the chasm, given the events going on I'd have been worried about one of Nidhoggs brood swooping in to snatch them up... Throwing something important to an avian enemy into the air to rid yourself of them... Was a foolish plan for a number of reasons...

But that's only half the issue. The Eorzean Alliance failing to track down Ilberd to bring him to justice, and letting the "Griffin" go about recruiting inside their territory? That's a whole other issue.

Really though, Nidhoggs Eyes being involved kind of makes Shinryu a whole special case in my opinion... Exceptional circumstances lead to Shinryu being summoned, hardly the norm in Primals brought about to challenge the empire.

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The Sea of Clouds in the chasm around the Holy See is explained as being a perpetual tempest of water and wind aether that will tear to pieces anything that tries to enter it. Throwing them off the bridge was a pretty safe bet all things considered.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

"Throw them away so we don't know what happens to them" is a terrible plan compared to "Hold onto them so we can seal them or destroy them ourselves", shouldn't leave something like that up to chance.

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I think the main concern at that point was "FOR THE LOVE OF THE TWELVE GET THEM THE FUDGE AWAY FROM THE DUDE WHO LITERALLY ABSORBED THEM AND BECAME NIDHOGG!!"

Like, when we tore them out of Estinien, we weren't sure that he wasn't still under the control of Nidhogg, keeping them around and risking you know, having to take out Nidhogg again (Which we only achieved with help of Hraesvelgr's eye combined with the super powers of being the WoL).

So, while in hindsight, it wasn't the best plan... At the time, it makes sense. Simultaneously get them away from the dude who could accidentally become a giant angry dragon hell bent on murdering everyone (Again) and well, put them into a place that's supposed to destroy literally everything in it.

Hindsight bias is a really bad argument.

Whether Shinryu was summoned within or without Gyr Abania / Ala Mhigo, the point is the Empire's methods set up the conditions that led to his summoning. If the Empire's methods were effective at rooting out all summons, this wouldn't happen. Refugees are a direct consequence of the Empire's conquest, and the actions they take in response to that conquest are consequently the Empire's fault.

Whether the Eorzeans should have kept a tighter leash on Ilberd, whether they should have been more militant in rooting out him and his Masks... is immaterial, given those actions wouldn't be necessary in the first place had the Empire simply left Ala Mhigo alone. None of this would have been necessary had the Empire just stopped. But on they marched, and for what?

For the sake of a bunch of meaningless lies.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Hindsight bias is a really bad argument.

Whether Shinryu was summoned within or without Gyr Abania / Ala Mhigo, the point is the Empire's methods set up the conditions that led to his summoning. If the Empire's methods were effective at rooting out all summons, this wouldn't happen. Refugees are a direct consequence of the Empire's conquest, and the actions they take in response to that conquest are consequently the Empire's fault.

Whether the Eorzeans should have kept a tighter leash on Ilberd, whether they should have been more militant in rooting out him and his Masks... is immaterial, given those actions wouldn't be necessary in the first place had the Empire simply left Ala Mhigo alone. None of this would have been necessary had the Empire just stopped. But on they marched, and for what?

For the sake of a bunch of meaningless lies.

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Lies that a group of bodysnatching, no clipping, immortal spectres could enforce upon the upper echelons of the government and military at leisure. Even devoid of the Empire's presence, primals occur with regularity, some at the hands of belligerents that are tailor made to not stop moving towards summoning, and others simply for petty reasons the beast tribes have been complaining about for years, and will likely be no closer to resolving.


Ascians, by sheer virtue of their dick dastardly antics, makes the Garleans just another easily beatable mess to be knocked over and promotes the fact that they were made, and written, specifically to fail, as they have been throughout the game's history.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Lies that a group of bodysnatching, no clipping, immortal spectres could enforce upon the upper echelons of the government and military at leisure. Even devoid of the Empire's presence, primals occur with regularity, some at the hands of belligerents that are tailor made to not stop moving towards summoning, and others simply for petty reasons the beast tribes have been complaining about for years, and will likely be no closer to resolving.

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Whether they're tailor-made to appeal to the Garleans or not, whether they were shoved down the Garleans' throats or not... lies are lies.

I (and others) pointed it out before, but prior to the Empire's assault on Silvertear summoning was much, much less frequent. There aren't even records of a summon during the Sixth Astral Era in Eorzea predating this event, and if Hien's commentary during the parley is anything to go by, it wasn't a common occurrence over in Othard either (if it ever happened at all).

If there were few to no summons prior to the Empire's campaign, and there are now many and frequent summons as a consequence...

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Whether they're tailor-made to appeal to the Garleans or not, whether they were shoved down the Garleans' throats or not... lies are lies.

I (and others) pointed it out before, but prior to the Empire's assault on Silvertear summoning was much, much less frequent. There aren't even records of a summon during the Sixth Astral Era in Eorzea predating this event, and if Hien's commentary during the parley is anything to go by, it wasn't a common occurrence over in Othard either (if it ever happened at all).

If there were few to no summons prior to the Empire's campaign, and there are now many and frequent summons as a consequence...

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Yes, lies are lies, and they were fools not to figure it out the moment they were uttered in the snows, so let’s just bury the Garleans already since they are such a waste of space! The writers clearly went out of their way to make them useless slobs emphasizing the worst of civilized thought, and following orders still makes you just as bad, so who are we to argue otherwise! Just kill them, put an end to the empire and be done with it.

And the ascian involvement, of course, make that so much more simpiler.

Look, There simply is no point arguing about it anymore when the first line of the Shadowbringers reveal is to “take down the garlean empire”. That just kills the story up north for me.