Mmm. I would consider it incredibly rude and inconsiderate for someone who doesn’t know a fight to join a farm party for it. Because they’re basically expecting for everyone else to be okay with their stumbling through it and the mechanics, and that’s not okay. Plus, they lied about their experience in the fight if they’re sneaking into a farm group and haven’t actually cleared it yet. That’s far more toxic than players telling him not to join because he doesn’t know what he’s doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishbowl3
Raid behavior is getting worse lately
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10-01-2018, 11:42 AMHyoMinPark
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10-01-2018, 11:48 AMvan_arnIt's straight up toxic to expect a carry in a farm group. You're capable of farming it or you earn every blist and kick you get.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishbowl3
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10-01-2018, 01:24 PMAster_EIt's not toxic to expect manners from people. Butting into a farm when you don't know enough of a fight is bad form. People already have enough trouble with trusting one another in PUGs because of folks who barely learned anything when they got their clears, individuals who got their clears just so they can leech off of everyone else with little to no effort, and so on. These groups, especially when a piece of content is quite new, typically don't want the extra burden of someone coming in who's new and knows nothing of the fight. Some are fine with the newb, especially when it's someone they know can and will learn what they need to fast. If you /tell the party lead that you know the fight, but haven't made it to a clear yet, then it's possible they will let you in and give you a chance, but only if they feel up to it. Again, people's trust has been historically tested on this. I lost count of how many times someone claimed they knew the fight, have seen up to whatever mechanic or enrage, and then proceed to mess up every single thing as though they don't know the basics of the fight in question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishbowl3
Compare to an actual learning party where bad form is someone who makes the majority of the mistakes says the group is not a learning party after two whole wipes, and they leave instantly. That person who left because the rest of the group could not over-compensate for them would have been in the wrong. Whereas, someone who's fresh into the thick of things would be more than fine here since learning the fight is entirely the point of the group. Not learning to be carried, not learning to barely do mechanics while everyone else does that plus DPS, but learn their part in the encounter. In this case, I would only begin to call the group toxic if they DEMAND you watch a video, or that YOU KNOW a new method with some stupid name no one's heard about. That's not helping anyone that wants to learn. A guide helps, usually, but it should not be mandatory. The only things that should be required are the capacity to learn and the ability to carry your weight.
That's just being responsible. -
10-01-2018, 05:25 PMTaiyoShikasuFirst I'd say it's more than half of the game that's awful, second nice armchair psychology where'd you get your degree, and third who goes into a farm party expecting to learn? That's literally the opposite of what a farm party is for. Granted even in HW farm parties, there are people who should make a learning party.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishbowl3
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10-01-2018, 05:48 PMThoosa
I have noticed this particularly in the alphascape raids (savage and normal) and I think this is because:
1. They have mechanics which require faster reaction times (to avoid high damage), more stacking damage and things to avoid, so you have to pay attention more and be more precise about where you stand.
2. They seem to have more mechanics for tanks (swapping and cooldowns more often) and healers get some additional mechanics sometimes, plus they have to heal more damage. Dps seem to have it the easiest but tend to wipe more now.
Generally wipes happen more often (even in normal which didn’t happen so much in the previous normal raids) then you add Party Finder and in o9s, even clear groups can’t often make it to the orb phase and if they do, they wipe. :)
So I guess that’s why frustration is high. -
10-01-2018, 06:15 PMFiorinolFrankly, I've been making or joining party finders with little expectations. I've spent multiple lockouts today doing "clear" o11s parties in PF. I had fun, but we did no progress at all. We could never get to second panto, which is a mechanic that comes in the second half of the fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aster_E
Players would constantly join the clear party with little to no knowledge of the fight, no food, no melds, arguing about strategies announced in the PF, and sometimes even being outright toxic to other players while dragging down the party themselves.
Joining a party where you drag other players down by not having experience with the mechanics is disrespectful and rude.
This behavior even permeates learning parties, I've seen first panto prog parties where players who aren't comfortable at all with level checker join and ruin the party for everybody else, as they're neither fast learners nor know mechanics. -
10-01-2018, 06:38 PMsakkito
@Fishbowl3 I have read all your subsequent posts below the original. To explain it best I will describe something that really happened to me. At one point at a time I decided to clear Byakko Ex. (I had a break and I was late to the 'party' lol). I joined one learning party to learn/clear. Obviously that did not happen. I have created second party in which after gruesome 1h30mins I have cleared. Then I have joined 2 more training/learning parties because I figured I am not ready to farm that stuff definitely because learning 100% takes some time. I cleared in both and my first farm party I have warned that I have cleared it just 3-4 times and if that is ok. Yes I was super careful. A bit too much but hey. I hate being a burden. Then I met friendlies with clears and same goals and we all REALLY wanted that damn doggos. LIKE WE ALL REALLY REALLY WANTED IT >.< So we went and created pf for farming Byakko, specifying that we want people to have experience in it and know strat. When we do pf farm parties we really dont expect to stay longer than 30 mins in one run. Like that is a NO. And guess what? Next few runs of those pf groups people join in, everything is fine... we que in and we have a bonus message. No word, no warning - nothing. And when we asked who is new (as I feel uneasy about kicking, you have got to give it a chance lol)..nobody answers. And then we repeatedly wipe for 3 hours. So instead of 30 mins max - 6 runs/6 totem drops/6weapons + chance for a doggo - we spent 3 hours trying to clear it for a stranger who clearly had no idea what was going on. It is not toxic when a farming group doesn't want to accomodate a learning person because that is not the purpose of a party. That is imposing your need to clear over other 7 people need to farm. You can always message pf leader if a new person would be welcome and then if that person agrees it would be fine but (!) definitely hijacking a party because of your selfishness is indeed making things toxic however nice people would not be it is staggering how people think it is not rude and unnecessary behaviour.
You don't go to the ... idk, bookstore that specialises in academic stuff and expect them to have mangas or demanding they order you mangas because it is a book after all. You can ask but you would usually go look for them elsewhere. That is why your comment about how people should accomodate others' selfishness because otherwise they would be considered toxic (which in fact is more like - if 7 people have time and will, they CAN but really dont have to help) and have issues with real life is really wrong.
Tho the comment about being toxic because you have issues rl is as inane as if girl blows up, she has to be on her period. :/ Some people just like to see things burn, ya know? -
10-01-2018, 06:41 PMThoosa
I’ve found in practice parties that people just leave after one or two runs, and then they are replaced and we have to relearn and retune with each other over and over, and it’s rare to be able to progress the fight (rarely are you lucky).
I guess that’s why people join clear parties in the hope that they have people around them who know what they’re doing to give them a chance to clear it, but these savage raids are quite unforgivable in that if one or two people die, it’s usually a wipe, or the not so sure of the mechanics player (who knows more than a total new person, but not so much like it’s the back of their hand) causes the wipe by killing everyone.
I think there should be an intermediate practice option for people who know the fight but aren’t fully confident of it, for the requirement of a clear group, but I don’t know how or if that could be implemented. :) -
10-01-2018, 07:03 PMHyoMinParkI missed this post. I can say for certain that Savage parties do not want inexperienced players in them for weeklies (or farms once they're unlocked). That is absolutely not okay. We're there to get in our weekly clears, get our chests/pages/gear, and move on to the next fight. We aren't looking to help someone who has no idea what they're doing limp through the fight. Extremes are very much the same thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishbowl3
Sneaking into a farm or weekly 2-chest/1-chest/page run PF and lying about your experience in a fight is wrong, and if you think it's okay, then I'm sorry. You deserve the kick from the party that they will give you. -
10-01-2018, 07:04 PMFiorinolMy experience with learning parties tends to be that you never get to the mechanic described in the party finder, because people with little experience with the rest of the fight join instead of making their own groups, making your group wipe far before.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thoosa
Party Finder is in an odd place in NA, mostly due to the attitude players have towards savage content. You just can't join and have any expectations, lest you want to constantly kick other players.
Statics have their own sets of problems too that makes me want not to bother with them.