Tank Stance

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

I'm not sure enjoy is the right word. It's more the battle system for healers is so anemic you need dps for filler than anything. I like healing more outside of normal pve, like eureka or pvp, because the speed of the damage eliminates all the filler dpsing. Spamming stone IV isn't fun gameplay.

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I’d rather spam Stone IV than be force to stand and wait around for people to take damage, to be quite frank. There’s also more to WHM than just that—you still have DoTs to manage, and the ever-lovely skill Assize to use off-cooldown (unless you’re saving it for an incoming raid-wide damage). Yoshida also explained that the reasoning for removing Cleric Stance/scaling healer DPS off of Mind was because he was aware that people enjoy that gameplay, and wanted to make it simpler (since Cleric Stance was notorious for being over-sensitive to double tapping, and it locked you into it for 5 full seconds). Those were his words, not mine.

Most of the healers that DPS will tell you they do so because standing around and waiting for incoming damage is boring gameplay, and that they actually enjoy contributing to the party in another meaningful way. You’ve read the healer DPS debates. Sure some do to conform to some META, but a lot do because they enjoy it/want to. You’re again applying your definition of “fun” or “interesting” gameplay to everyone—what’s fun (or not fun) for you doesn’t apply to others. Same for what is fun (or not fun) for me. But I’m going off of what countless other healers have said in the myriad of healer DPS debates this forum has seen.

But this thread isn’t about that; it’s about a supposed bad tank who, while he may or may not have actually been bad, was not wrong when he said enmity management is also the responsibility of DPS jobs. Use Diversion. Use Tactician.

I said it because there aren't as many people who like it as you think. Yeah, the game is where everyone has to dps, but I don't think it should be said that it is attractive gameplay to a lot of people. Especially if you come from other games, this game's healing takes a bit of getting used to and is not one of its strongest points.

As for the tank, eh. I'm seen way too many primadonna tanks in DF; usually the first one to abandon anything is a tank, so I kind of lean to the OP a lot more. And again, Lucid dreaming is more valuable for me to restore MP than a enmity down tool, especially if its something where there is a risk of dying or needing to raise others.l The tank if he stays in DPS stance needs to keep an eye on the enmity list and make sure they are using enough enmity combos per the amount of hate the other dps use. If you have to burn tactician early, that means the pty will lose a decent amount of dps too in non-boss situations.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

As for the tank, eh. I'm seen way too many primadonna tanks in DF; usually the first one to abandon anything is a tank, so I kind of lean to the OP a lot more. And again, Lucid dreaming is more valuable for me to restore MP than a enmity down tool, especially if its something where there is a risk of dying or needing to raise others. The tank if he stays in DPS stance needs to keep an eye on the enmity list and make sure they are using enough enmity combos per the amount of hate the other dps use. If you have to burn tactician early, that means the pty will lose a decent amount of dps too.

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As I said, I can understand with regards to Lucid, but you also have to consider the alternative, which will result in you dying more than likely. There could be better ways for healer enmity to be managed—right now, it seemed to only be WHM that struggles with it. AST has built-in enmity quelling in their Sects, and SCH doesn’t suffer as bad because their enmity is split between them and their Fairy.

With regards to the opening post/Tactician debate, if you’re dealing with a single-target (as was the case mentioned explicitly in the OP—it was the final boss of Doma Castle), Tactician will not be a DPS loss for anyone. You ripping aggro and dying, however, will be—both BRD and MCH are very burst heavy, especially in their openers, and sometimes you can rip off of even good tanks if they aren’t expecting your burst to be as high as it was (speaking from experience). In trash-pulls, everyone should be AOEing, so TP should not be an issue—you can generally rotate between Invigorate and Tactician between trash pulls. If it is, then someone isn’t doing what they’re supposed to be doing. The only times where I’ve noticed people struggling with TP are instances where they are the only one actually doing AOE damage, while the others are single-targeting.

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Originally Posted by addz3

Never mind the tank not using an ability created for the job? Wow.

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Funny how you'll blame the tank for not using a tool in his job, but when the healers and dps don't use theirs, it's completely okay.

If you all did use your enmity controlling and still all had more threat then him, then yes it's his fault. If the dps doesn't diversion though, then they're liable to tank. ALL dps have access to some form of enmity control (Even BRD and MCH, even though they're meant for resource help.)

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Originally Posted by addz3

People tank because they want fast queues. Would people stop play tanks because a stance gets taken away or nerfed in dungeon content?

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It's hard enough to convince me to even tank in the first place already, and the ability to max out my dps is what makes them fun and enjoyable when I actually do. Take that away, I'll delete my DRK alt on the spot, because you'd take the only reason I'd play a tank.

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Originally Posted by addz3

This has probably been said a 1000 times but I'm going to say it again. I've just finished doma castle on the leveling roulette and have experienced some of the worst tanking in recent memory. The WAR would not use defiance for the last boss, and when I commented on that fact he says dps should use diversion!? Wtf. When both dps and healer are the top 3 enmity list maybe use the godamn tank stance. This is why you are here...

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Context is important here. Assuming the tank pulled in Defiance and at least did Tomahawk/Heavy Swing + Equilibrium, they should hold aggro without issue unless the DPS aren't using Division/Lucid Dreaming or their gear isn't comparable. Bear in mind, this is absolutely a shared responsibility. Telling a Warrior to sit in Defiance because you can't be bothered to use Diversion is moronic. We're talking over 1,000 raid DPS throw away for literally nothing.

I find that more than not, warriors are the worst tanks for actual tanking in their tank stance. Is there some trait in the warrior tool bag that makes the player an arrogant douche that I wasn't aware of?

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Originally Posted by addz3

I would like to ask SE to take out the dps stance for group play. NERF the shit out of it so it's mainly for solo play like cleric stance back in the day.

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I hope you're ready to wait over an hour for DF queues because the overwhelming majority of tanks will never look at the role again. Without a focus on DPS, tanks and healers have nothing to strive towards. Mitigation, enmity and healing all have a threshold. Once reached, they are entirely redundant. Hence why people focus on their respective damage, especially Warrior. Make the game less damage centric, implement far higher outgoing damage—essentially reward defensive play, and people will adapt more readily. Of course, then you have lesser skilled players crying at how difficult the content is. Which is why dungeons are ultimately brain dead easy.

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Originally Posted by addz3

Save the rhetoric of dps = enmity and dps should manage enmity and all that. We've heard it all before.

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Evidently, you were ignoring it. DPS lose literally nothing pressing Diversion, Lucid Dreaming or Refresh/Tactician. Tanks lose 20%. So no, I am not going to sacrifice thousands of raid damage because you're lazy. Now if the tank sucks despite you utilizing these aforementioned abilities, that's another story.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Lucid dreaming is more valuable for me to restore MP than a enmity down tool, especially if its something where there is a risk of dying or needing to raise others.l The tank if he stays in DPS stance needs to keep an eye on the enmity list and make sure they are using enough enmity combos per the amount of hate the other dps use. If you have to burn tactician early, that means the pty will lose a decent amount of dps too in non-boss situations.

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Using Lucid Dream early, means it will be available earlier. A very common mistake healers make is holding onto it until they're nearly spent on MP, which is terrible usage. I will always get two uses from it unless I'm aoe spamming. As for Tactician, this is scarcely an issue outside boss encounters because tanks typically stay in tank stance longer due to massive pulls. Ironically, dungeons force tank stance more than even Savage due to pull sizes. Kind of ridiculous it takes upwards of 6-10 mobs hitting me before I actually need tank stance consistently active. And this only applies to healers who DPS. If they do nothing but heal, you can and should rotate your stance because the damage simply won't be high enough to kill you, assuming you know what you're doing.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

..your healer doesn't have diversion, they have a tool that refreshes their MP, which they use to offset the expensive cost of aoe dps. if you force me to use it on pull, thats a waste and reduces my dps overall. Using tactician or diversion on pull is a waste cause you need it for bursts, and tactician is clumsy as hell...its prime purpose again is to offset the tp cost of aoe dps. I mean just click tank on while you run, you aren't dpsing the mobs any while you do it. Click it off while at the end of the pull, thats ok, but ugh, i might want to benison or tetra you during a long pull, and no tank stance can mean it comes back to me.

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Use Lucid when your MP dips below 80% or thereabouts. If you actively DPS and don't stand around doing absolutely nothing, you will get the full benefit. And in what universe is Tactician clumsy? Quick Nock (Tactician) -> Quick Nock. If you can't do that...

Benison will not rip from a tank pulling, if you time it after they aoe a pack and keep going. You never Tetra during pulls. Not only is that a complete waste of an oGCD, you'll rip by virtue of overhealing for little to no reason.

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Originally Posted by Ameela

If tanks were never meant to leave tank stance why would they have specific abilities they can only use while not in tank stance?

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She means whoever has the boss' attention should be in tank stance. Or rather that was how the developers envisioned it. I actually believe her because even Xeno talks about how much flack he took for trying to optimize tank DPS as the MT back in ARR. Likewise, JP, apparently, took it as being disrespectful if the MT went into DPS stance or both healers were in Cleric because it was too risky for no reason. Of course, times have since changed and damage has long become the focal point due to, in my opinion, poor design. Healing is absurdly powerful, thus you simply don't need to play defensively. Likewise, content does pitifully low damage relative to the cooldowns available. Even Savage suffers from this to varying extents. Yoshida mentioned in a previous interview his disappointment so few Warriors want to use Defiance. To which I say, "Give me a reason outside bad players or Ultimate. And I will."

Eh, if the tank wasn't holding aggro, then he should have adjusted, and same with the healers and dps.
This is a team game after all.
For example, I heal more and dps less if dps stand in aoes. Is it the dps's responsibility to not stand in aoes? Yes, but healers can flex and make up for their mistakes. Healer over-healing (to be honest even with heal spams, I havn't been able to rip aggro in SB, when I could in HW), then the tank has to tank more, to make up for the healer's mistakes. Healer need mana help? Give them some mana with bard and rdm. Tank not using defensive cooldowns? Healers use shields (where applicable) and keep them topped up at all times. And of course, use emnity reducing abilities before/when you rip aggro from the tank.

That being said, a tank's primary role is keeping emnity. It wouldn't be good form for a healer to dps and let their teammates die because they didn't heal, so tanks should really make sure they are actually tanking the adds comfortably before switching to dps stance.

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Originally Posted by addz3

I find that more than not, warriors are the worst tanks for actual tanking in their tank stance. Is there some trait in the warrior tool bag that makes the player an arrogant douche that I wasn't aware of?

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There are loads of bad players. I've mostly only ever met bad PLD's.

When I play warrior I tend to stay in defiance for monsters and go to deliverance for bosses so I can fellllll cleeeaaave. :)

I find if I swap more often with monsters I have to trust the healer and fight more for aggro as more often than not, the dps don’t bother to manage their aggro. :)

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

Funny how you'll blame the tank for not using a tool in his job, but when the healers and dps don't use theirs, it's completely okay.

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For most dps and healers, those tools are not "mandatory", while all of a tank's enmity tools are baked into their kit. Now, I cross both Diversion and Lucid like a good little dps because I run agro happy jobs. But you know what I don't need when I take my RDM into a PotD solo run? Diversion. So here I am in a boss fight in a dungeon with a party and I have Drain instead. Is it my fault for forgetting? Absolutely, for all the good it does the party in the middle of the fight I realized it on. Should the tank still refuse to use their enmity tools in that situation?
Admittedly this is more a complaint about role actions than anything else.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

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That depends on whether or not you actually let the tank know you forgot the skill.
Communication is important, otherwise it's impossible to tell apart someone who forgot to slot Diversion and someone who just plain wouldn't even use it in the first place.