More engaging DPS for healers

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Originally Posted by Bobs

I did dude. So I'll repeat myself. Seems like you did not read what I wrote.

You are asking for a bunch of extra keys to press that do the same DMG as current healer.

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Dude, I'm not asking for anything. But the original post isn't asking for extra buttons to do the same DPS we have now. Most of what they asked for was extra benefits for doing DPS.

Don't really know why you repeated yourself when that was literally what I was referring to.

I for one dont want it. If anything i want to deter the idea of DPSing as a Healer. In a system where u are assign a role, been Healer, DPS or Tank, i dont want to step into anyone of them.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

Dude, I'm not asking for anything. But the original post isn't asking for extra buttons to do the same DPS we have now. Most of what they asked for was extra benefits for doing DPS..

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If you do a blanket lookover (like I'm convinced he did), it does look more like it's just making healers more like Red Mage with more healing options, which although being an overly hasty conclusion on the matter, is still a very valid concern that has probably been grappled with at least a few times by job devs.

At what point does a healer stop being a healer and start being a DPS with heals? Some might argue that with the design of the game and the parsing culture of the playerbase that we're well past that point. Others could look at a job like Red Mage and go "yes, that's the benchmark for it", and I suspect job devs had that in mind as the job was created. Then there's the possibility that healer DPS is intentionally dumbed down as it is in other major MMORPGs for the intended understanding that healers are shockingly not DPS. Either way, I think some sort of required guidelines have to be in place before any sort of ideas regarding aspects of healer DPS can be addressed, to which I can can come up with at least two:

1.) No healer damage kit should be more complicated than that of any DPS. It is important to bear in mind that the increased simplicity of the current healer damage kit is due to the understanding that by dealing damage as a healer, you are effectively multitasking between two roles. Although it may seem like an easy feat for some, it surprisingly isn't that case for every player, which is why the argument that the life of a DPS is just as hard as any other role bears slightly less credibility than a working microwave with a broken door, and I'm sure anyone attempting to make such an argument would probably lose nothing by sticking their head in it.

2.) Any boons of healer DPS have to benefit healing. In order to better reward dealing damage as a healer, it would be a more ideal compromise between what the players want and what devs would want that any sort of damage dealt by healers would have a way of increasing the effectiveness of healing spells or abilities in some form or fashion to reinforce the reminder that although any damage dealt by a healer is a boon to the party, at the end of the day, they are intended to be healers first and foremost.

On the other hand, I think if we have to ask ourselves about enhancing the DPS gameplay of healers in this regard, we should probably be asking how healing can be made more engaging in this game as well aside from dealing damage on the side.

I dunno where this idea that healers would get more buttons is coming from - it's been disputed multiple times. On the subject of discouraging healers from DPS'ing...why? This repeated argument that if the DPS can't produce the necessary damage numbers is asinine at best, because that's on everyone. I cannot fathom the reasoning why a healer would only want to heal and nothing else. There are quite a few instances in the game where you don't have a choice but to deal damage. And let's be honest, pretty much every instanced duty requires teamwork - why would you not want to help your team? I can understand in some fights where you're overwhelmed to the point that you have no choice but to stick to healing - but every fight to this point has adequate time for healers to produce some DPS.

On subject from what I've read, the whole idea is to encourage healers to DPS more and it produces an additional benefit to the team. I like the idea that with each Stone cast, the WHM would apply a stoneskin to the enemy target. How is that a bad thing? Now if you have a healer that starts focusing more on DPS than healing - well, give them a warning. If that doesn't work, kick them. It's not hard to get a healer to queue into an instance. How is something like this that complicated? Please, do enlighten me.

Instead of focusing solely on just the negatives, why not try opening your mind and think about all the positives that this could potentially bring. Think of something for ASTs, think of something for SCHs. Stop looking for something to critique all the time.

I main WHM, AST, and SCH because I want to heal and support my party members, not do damage. If I wanted to play a bloated, overly complicated offensive class with painfully restrictive rotations, I'd pick any DPS currently available in the game.

Overhaul the healing jobs as proposed in the OP and there'd honestly be nothing left in this game for me.

I really like the idea of adding mechanics to our DPS kit that feed back into our healing kit. So it really annoys me when people shout that these suggestions to interweave the skills in a kit steps on the toes of other roles. I think they're forgetting that the holy role trinity should be a guideline more than anything else. For there will always be unique and specialized niches and functions of individual classes that make them more than two dimensional. If they want to dogmatically devote themselves singularly to healing, they may as well go play a doctor simulator for all the other action they ignore.

Even in the game story itself, White Mage, Scholar, and Astrologian. They are NOT pure healers, they may specialize in mending but they have the tools to fight as well, that's why they go on to the battlefield after all.
White mages elemental spells are almost exclusively attacks. Scholors prepare barriers and then go on to provide covering fire. Astrologians are the least offensive of the healers trading attacks and healing both compared to the others for tons of utility.

Anyway, adding some ideas onto the OP's suggestions, I think going along with the Stone->Stoneskin idea, what if rather than applying directly to the target of your target, it gave yourself a stacking buff that increases the power of Divine Benison? After all, that's what pretty much replaced Stoneskin and this way your attacks will feed back into your healing kit in a way you'll be able to control.

I do think we could make room for some Dps into more Dps mechanics, but I agree with another poster that said that our Dps kit should never actually be as complicated as a DPS. If we want spell combos, I believe it would be good to take a page from RDM's book, which is to say procs with a long forgiving duration that understand that we might not be able to act on them right away. I always did loath spell tiers and the pruning done to them because they basically did the same things. Why not have taken another page from say, BLM's book wherein I,II,III,IV and what not were not simply numbers upgrades but mechanic upgrades. Bam there's our Dps kit given more depth without adding more buttons,if anything, we're giving back buttons.

If these ideas seem like they are taking a lot of pages from others, I bring this philosophical note from the Artist department.
Good artists copy, Great artists steal.
This is not about plagiarizing, but about how someone less might simply go along with a technique because it works compared to someone better who will break down and understand a technique before putting a new spin on it to make their own.

As a tank who has died numerous times because the healer was too usy spamming Holy, Id like to see the implementation of either attack spells that offer a slight healing to nearby party members or healing spells that add a damage to nearby monsters.

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Originally Posted by Pyroxene

As a tank who has died numerous times because the healer was too usy spamming Holy, Id like to see the implementation of either attack spells that offer a slight healing to nearby party members or healing spells that add a damage to nearby monsters.

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But we already have that. WHM has Assize and AST has Earthly Star. SCH doesn't have anything of the sort, but having an assistant that heals for a decent amount allows them to be more aggressive with DPS.

There was a thread on healer forum about ways to incentivize DPS back then and I agree with most of them. I believe Sebazy has already mentioned some of these ideas and I think that is the most reasonable way going forward as healers; it's a fine compromise for this attack/support thingy. Zero DPS as healer is... uh, not recommended for most contents. However, it seems that the fixation with healer DPS is starting to get out of hand too. From healers going full DH meld to healers going to melee range to do some card-slapping/book-whacking/staff-bashing because "DPS loss is DPS loss".

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Originally Posted by Aeducan

But we already have that. WHM has Assize and AST has Earthly Star. SCH doesn't have something like that, but having an assistant that heals for a decent amount allows them to be more aggressive with DPS.

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I wish more actions across multiple classes functioned like Assize. Fewer skills that offer more versatility makes for a game that's easier to pick up, but still hard to master, and in my opinion, a hell of a lot more fun than a hotbar dance.

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Originally Posted by Aeducan

But we already have that. WHM has Assize and AST has Earthly Star. SCH doesn't have something like that, but having an assistant that heals for a decent amount allows them to be more aggressive with DPS.

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I mean more engaging additions, like a small heal added to stone/holy or a "aero mobs near target" cure 1 etc. adapt for different healer classes etc but the concept is there