These warrior changes are great

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Originally Posted by BluexBird

So uh... what you're saying is that now, Warriors can stay alive indefinitely, pretty much like how Paladins have been able to ever since Stormblood came out. You're right, that IS absurd! Only Paladins should be able to do it!

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Having moments where you survive for long periods of time happened before as well, the inner release change just makes it slightly easier if you have it up because you have 10 seconds worth of being able to use the ability meant for survival (instead of using it for just damage) So really this is not so absurd. I've had plenty moments on all three tanks where the stars aligned just right to save the group. Tanks aren't THAT squishy that they can't even survive 10 seconds without a healer, and they can handily prolong the period as long as they use mitigation and all abilities possible in that dire moment.

So yeah not that absurd, especially like you said the paladin can self-heal for grand amounts and even be invincible for a short time

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Originally Posted by TheCount

Having moments where you survive for long periods of time happened before as well, the inner release change just makes it slightly easier if you have it up because you have 10 seconds worth of being able to use the ability meant for survival (instead of using it for just damage) So really this is not so absurd. I've had plenty moments on all three tanks where the stars aligned just right to save the group. Tanks aren't THAT squishy that they can't even survive 10 seconds without a healer, and they can handily prolong the period as long as they use mitigation and all abilities possible in that dire moment.

So yeah not that absurd, especially like you said the paladin can self-heal for grand amounts and even be invincible for a short time

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PLD and WAR can. DRK can't sustain for as long however.

I dunno about anyone else but I can't get my DPS as high as i was getting it before the update but I'm still using Full direct hit melds and a mostly Crit setup I've got a very minimal loss, about 50-100 dps? Then again I was mostly just messing around and have not bothered with an optimum rotation or anything. From what I could tell onslaught looked like a DPS loss unless you used it during IR only due to cleave helping to clip infuriate. Losing a cleave in the IR is a miserable feeling, seeing your gauge go down when you weren't expecting it to. I don't feel like trying a sks/det setup but the byakko axe would be a perfect start if anyone else were to try. Probably just gonna stick with feeling miserable on DRK instead cause we love company. I have a feeling that if the fight has an add phase warriors will shine anyways if they can get their IR to align with it.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

PLD and WAR can. DRK can't sustain for as long however.

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Not for as long no, but i've played DRK this expansion too and they can. It's just more difficult for them due to the obviously lacking abilities that SE has yet still to adress. DRK has no real strength to draw upon, and self-healing especially is pretty trash for them compared to the other two. Even its AOE healing is not that special anymore considering the warrior can AOE heal more easily now anyway with the new Inner Release and using Steel Cyclone

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

I dunno about anyone else but I can't get my DPS as high as i was getting it before the update ...

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From what I can tell, WAR is doing just a tiny bit more dps overall when doing a pretty optimal rotation and when I say tiny, I mean like maybe 2-3% if even that.

Your new singular IRzerk window should be doing about the same to a tiny bit more if you are successfully fitting 5 FC, weaving in both Onslaught and Upheaval, as well as factoring in that your autos during the window are also DH Crits and the extra FCs that you fit right before/after the window to dump gauge and use Infuriate so it is on cooldown during the window and to make use of the extra gauge that you didn't have to use with the new IRzerk.

This is based on comparing the damage output of the 90s cycles of the new IRzerk versus the combined damage of the 120s cycles of the old IR and Zerk windows (keep in mind that that while Zerk has a recast of 60s, every other one was used with IR so the cadence in which Zerk was used by itself was every 120s). Basically the damage from the new window divided by 90s versus the sum of the old IR+Zerk and just Zerk windows divided by 120s.
Also keep in mind, how lucky you would get with DH and Crits in the old windows would affect the comparison. If you are comparing a situation in which you got really lucky with DH/Crits/DH-Crits, then the new IRzerk would look like a noticeable amount less, but on the other end if you got really unlucky and had no DH/Crits/DH-Crits, the new IRzerk would seem like a lot more than before. Overall it equals out to be about the same when you look at realistic averages of DH/Crit/DH-Crit frequencies.

If you haven't updated your materia melds I could see that potentially resulting in falling just below what you were hitting before, since when looking at the two I was comparing my new meld where I maxed Crit as best I could versus my old DH maxed build. Maxing Crit in my melds gave me a small but noticeable bump in dps to my DH-Crit FCs that while individually seemed pretty minuscule, overall added up.

Really the big buff that WAR got was to it's Defiance game-play and power.

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As for whether Onslaught is a gain or loss outside of IRzerk, I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure that for the most part it is a slight gain as long as you are decently full on HP, even when factoring in the 5s FC shaves off of Infuriate.

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

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Pretty much. Max damage Optimal war in 4.1 is roughly the same as optimal war play in 4.2. Its just much easier to play optimally in 4.2. You basically have 1 job. Hit 5 GCDs in 10 sec. If you can do that you will be most of the way to optimal play. A lot of wars are seeing 'dramatic' improvements because the floor got raised. If you were playing very well and geared optimally (DH pentamelded accs etc) then you need to re-optimize your gear to crit to match your old performances.

The top end of war dps hasn't really moved in any meaningful way. Defensive defiance play has improved significantly and people that couldn't/didn't play war to its max before will see big DPS improvements if they land 5 GCDs in zerk window. Floor has been raised dramatically. Thats why the old vet wars are complaining/not seeing any change. Their damage actually went down until we revamp our gear while threads are full of "OMG WAR IS OP NOW" from the more avg joes that play more in defiance and didn't optimize 4.1 war rotations/gear as sharply who just got a big upgrade.

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Originally Posted by Aana

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It's true that high-end top percent players will see little to no difference, asides from having to adjust to new melds and rotations, when post-prog.

However, the big buff to Defiance has resulted in some stuff that could be considered OP due to being able to pull-off clutch saves with IRzerk IB spam and the insane heals coupled with AoE burst of IRzerk Cyclone. While these things may not factor into top-end raid play, it still affects the majority of the players as well as dungeons which are still a large part of the game for many.

Basically we should look at the whole picture for a job when gauging it's performance.

So, while nobody should argue that the new IRzerk rotation and WAR's max single-target dps has received a huge buff, it is arguably justified when people point to IRzerk IB and Cyclone and declare that OP. I could see there being merit in an IRzerk IB versus Clemency debate, but damn that IRzerk Cyclone is nuts.

If you look at only a small part of WAR, the top-end single-target dps potential, and compare it solely to that aspect of the previous incarnation of WAR then sure it may seem fine and like nothing has changed. However when you factor in the discernible buff that WAR got to its potential to play defensively as well as the changes that the other tanks got, such as the nerf to PLD damage, maybe there is some justification to people saying that WAR is OP now.

Many people, including yourself, felt that WAR and PLD were well balanced or at least incredibly close in 4.1.
If WAR got a tiny bump in dps, as well as some buffs in arguably less important things, while PLD got a slight nerf, wouldn't that put WAR slightly ahead and therefore OP at least by a small margin?

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

If WAR got a tiny bump in dps, as well as some buffs in arguably less important things, while PLD got a slight nerf, wouldn't that put WAR slightly ahead and therefore OP at least by a small margin?

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Its just the age old debate. What is balance. Who do you balance for? You cant both balance play around the lowest level of play and the highest at the same time. Its just not possible. Balance around poorer performing players and the top end pro play is jacked. Balance around pro play and there can be big swings in lower brackets. Meet in the middle and top and bottom are both going to be a little off. These debates have been raging since starcraft 1 in the 90s. There is no real answer, just philosophical choices.

War at high end play is virtually unchanged. World 1st people arent going to be winning by letting war IB 6x because their healers died. Bleeding edge content wont allow big mistakes like that in the 1st place and big disaster recovery is nigh impossible in many cases. But when I did my hells lid as war with 3 players in 310 gear who all 3 died at final boss, I could solo the last 20% of the boss with IB spam. Balanced at 'pro' level. OP at low levels. Is it balanced or OP? Both. Simultaneously. This was the same issue as Drk. Its both Balanced and UP simultaneously.

What youre asking me isnt really a fair question. Pld being more 'straightforward' has made it more powerful at lower skill levels while war was the 'harder' job because not everyone could manage their gauge and stay on top of their CDs. But at the upper level of play, its assumed people can play their jobs to max potential. Wars who can keep up with everything did more damage than every other tank. Now they made lower skill play war much more rewarding in a variety of ways without really touching the high end. So it didnt do anything to balance at the top, while completely reshaping how war performs at the bottom/middle.

Balance isnt just a binary yes or no. Its a sliding scale that shifts as individual skill and party cooperation shifts. Another example, people often complained that Drk was/is unbalanced because it lacks the same enmity tools as War/Pld. But at high levels of individual skill and coordinated parties that mange enmity well, it was an utter non-issue. Circle shirk, shade, individual hate shed abilities, etc trivialize enmity super hard at high levels that many would say it doesnt matter at all. But for jo smo drk they would really struggle.

In bronze in starcraft banelings (little rolling bombs) utterly destroy marines (small clumped up weak ranged units) by rolling into crowds and blowing up 10 at a time. At the pro level marines can BEAT their hard counter banelings by manually splitting every marine up with 400 apm so each baneling explodes on a single marine instead of 10. Balanced and unbalanced at the same time at different skill levels.

Sad truth is you cant balance for everyone. Its impossible. So you have to choose who you balance for. SE seems to have decided that they dont care if War is OP as shiz in dungeons. Its fine at the top end. Is that right? Is it fair? Those are philosophical questions more than a right/wrong. Its right and fair for the raiders. Its not for dungeons, but if you have the attitude that dungeons dont really matter, then its fine. Balance is more a perspective than a fact.

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Bleh went a little overboard, but with so much balance talk sometimes taking a step back and asking what balance even is might be in order. People see the game from their perspective, skill level, and experience. Balance is relative to all those things so there is unlikely to ever be any real agreement. But it's important to remember balance is bigger than any 1 persons perspective.

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Originally Posted by Aana

People see the game from their perspective, skill level, and experience. Balance is relative to all those things so there is unlikely to ever be any real agreement. But it's important to remember balance is bigger than any 1 persons perspective.

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Exactly. I am in complete agreement with pretty much all you said.

The quoted bit is basically what I was getting at, admittedly in perhaps an intentionally roundabout way.

Basically both perspectives are correct and incorrect at the same time and your outlook depends entirely on perspective and what facet of game-play you look at or what part of the playerbase you fall into.

To the top-end player it's pretty much the same and therefore is seen as relatively balanced.
This is perfectly justifiable for these players and the content that is their focus.

To the lower end and mid-core players, there was a big boost in performance to WAR to the point that it arguably out-performs the other tanks and is OP.
This too is perfectly justifiable for these players and the content that is their focus.

So when one group says things are balanced for them and another group says things are not balanced for them, we really should neither hold one group's opinion and perspective as gospel nor dismiss either group just because they fall into a different group of players.

So going back to the overall balance of WAR, it's pretty well balanced in top-end raid environments but OP as hell in lower-end content like dungeons.
The real question is where do we go from here to potentially adjust one aspect of performance without messing with the other? This is where it gets a little tricky.

I would also just like to end on emphasizing one point that you made that I feel is incredibly important for people to keep in mind.

Balance, amongst many other things, is bigger than any one person or group's perspective so maybe we should all be a little more open to trying to understand other perspectives to gain the bigger picture.

I have just jumped on the warrior bandwagon and hell yea, it feels so much better than drk, which lacks in everything.
No MP managament, pure dmg, easy paced and to understand skillset, 3 usefull combos, nice cd's, life steal, and berzerker is super broken cooldown, no idea why people were complaining about it so badly. At least warrior is much less about RNG, and you could focus on stats like tenacity or determination.
Oh and 2 heals as well, instant cast and without any cost.

If they want to make DRK as useful as warrior, they should have get rid of the MP usage entirely, anyway i dont see DRK being even close to the warrior level of overall power.
What bothers me is the disparity between similar purpose skills like overpower and unleash, the unleash is like 2 times worse, less than a half dmg of overpower and need MP to use, where warrior overpower needs TP, the resource you cant really run out.

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Originally Posted by Aana

War at high end play is virtually unchanged. World 1st people arent going to be winning by letting war IB 6x because their healers died. Bleeding edge content wont allow big mistakes like that in the 1st place and big disaster recovery is nigh impossible in many cases. But when I did my hells lid as war with 3 players in 310 gear who all 3 died at final boss, I could solo the last 20% of the boss with IB spam. Balanced at 'pro' level. OP at low levels. Is it balanced or OP? Both. Simultaneously. This was the same issue as Drk. Its both Balanced and UP simultaneously.

What youre asking me isnt really a fair question. Pld being more 'straightforward' has made it more powerful at lower skill levels while war was the 'harder' job because not everyone could manage their gauge and stay on top of their CDs. But at the upper level of play, its assumed people can play their jobs to max potential. Wars who can keep up with everything did more damage than every other tank. Now they made lower skill play war much more rewarding in a variety of ways without really touching the high end. So it didnt do anything to balance at the top, while completely reshaping how war performs at the bottom/middle.

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Any proof of it, that the changes didnt affected highest level of play warriors? I dont want the home-made analyze, most of them turned out to be totally false for patch 4.2, raw data is what i will accept.
That sounds just absurd, where 90% of the community see it as a buff but the few % doesnt. War may lose the dmg in the small burst gate gap with ogcd and gauge maxed out depending purely on RNG with crit and d-h, but he got that burst gate more reliable and last for longer.
Not to mention the raw DPS boost from potency increase for every single spell or that, the dps will get even more boost with the determination stat focus.

And still you cant base balance entirely on the 1% of the community gameplay, it will ruin the game.
Riot did that with their game LoL, and they end up ruining many champions that were discovered a niche strong in some cases, when they had no use for anyone in the game at all, but end up being nerfed just because it got played on tournament.