As a new player that really likes this game ...

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

What does "raid or die" even mean?


If you're referring to no other form of endgame progression besides raiding, I have bad news for you: raiding is the only real endgame XIV has.

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That's a matter of opinion... and one I do not share. Players can progress character power without raiding, and the gap in gear power between those who raid and those who don't is very small compared to other mmo's that accentuate raiding as their primary endgame.

If the main thing someone cares about is raiding, it's not surprising that they might not acknowledge the other "endgame" content that FFXIV has to offer. Just because you consider raiding "the only real endgame" FFXIV has, doesn't mean that's actually the case. I personally don't feel it is and I am fairly confident that I am not alone in that.

Raiding (by which I mean savage) is niche. The amount of players who engage in it is minuscule compared to those who don't. So if you're saying that raiding is the "only real endgame" you're also saying that the majority of those playing FFXIV don't engage in the "only real endgame". So what, pray tell, are they all doing then?

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Originally Posted by Jybril

I hate when people share their opinions and immediately get shut down.
Game is not perfect. Like, whenever someone says something even the slightest negative
about this game, you best be in Shield Oath. All the aggro coming your way!OP even stated he like the games story, and other things on it but the end-game
is bad...I can't speak for the thousands of players but I am sure a lot think
end-game isn't all that great. :/ It really isn't...It's missing something.
Also sucks gear is obsolete within a patch so you don't really feel accomplished
by your work. It's just a treadmill that dies out in a few months, just get another
treadmill that'll die at the same time frame.

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Part of the reason I feel locked in one job:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...weekly-gatings
Hey you know all that weekly time gate! now that you just got all 330 gear here is a different 450 tome of boring!

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Originally Posted by Jybril

You can have opinions but saying "Go back to X game" doesn't make much for discussion.
No one has yet talked about End-game minus me, which OP seems to be talking about the most.
I guess people here are content with the content giving end-game?

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Or there is not much end game to talk about

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Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

People are free to share their opinion, just like everyone else is free to share their opinion by disagreeing with it. If you want to sit in an echo chamber of agreement you're going to need to find a way to clone yourself.

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That can be done without chasing people away though, meaning "go back to wow" is not really constructive. Why not talk about how the game could be better instead just accepting whatever is given to us while trying not to chase people away?

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Originally Posted by Nicodemus_Mercy

Raiding (by which I mean savage) is niche. The amount of players who engage in it is minuscule compared to those who don't. So if you're saying that raiding is the "only real endgame" you're also saying that the majority of those playing FFXIV don't engage in the "only real endgame". So what, pray tell, are they all doing then?

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I consider endgame something you do or rather something you can do with near top gear - bis and feel challenged. For me the best endgame FFXIV had was 3.4, where you had a good chance of failing to HQ 250 gear even with full HQ materials (weapon because of the crystal things don't have HQs) so it was hard. Other then that FFXIV never had an endgame to me, including now. Doing stuff at max level is not endgame to me. I do stuff at 70 because it is something to do, not because it is exciting or anything, but because it is something to do with friends.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

What does "raid or die" even mean?

If you're referring to no other form of endgame progression besides raiding, I have bad news for you: raiding is the only real endgame XIV has.

WoW actually has it beat in that regard because WoW's PvP system is far more in depth than XIV's. Though XIV still has it beat in total number of side pursuits (and if they DO add a glamour log, it'll have WoW even MORE beat).



"Take the money that you were giving to this game I like and go give it to some other company instead."

No one who's actually a fan of XIV would ever say something like this...

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Change everything about FFXIV so it's just a WoW clone.

No one who's actually a fan of XIV would ever say something like this.... except the OP did. Hmmmm guess he's not a fan then.

P.S. All the WoW clones died short anguished deaths yet FFXIV is still around and healthy....clearly SE is doing something wrong.

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Originally Posted by Jybril

You can have opinions but saying "Go back to X game" doesn't make much for discussion.

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Originally Posted by Snow_Princess

That can be done without chasing people away though, meaning "go back to wow" is not really constructive.

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Yes, that's true. But it also depends on how someone gives their opinion. If most of their posts boil down to "Well X game did it better" instead of simply explaining how this game could improve, then it's not too egregious to tell them to go and play X game instead of trying to get Y game to copy it.

Which isn't something I'm attempting to accuse this particular OP of, but when looking at some of his posts I can understand why other posters would call him out on it: if he feels that so many aspects of WoW are better than XIV he might be happier going back to WoW instead of trying (in vain) to change XIV to match it.

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Originally Posted by Nicodemus_Mercy

Players can progress character power without raiding, and the gap in gear power between those who raid and those who don't is very small compared to other mmo's that accentuate raiding as their primary endgame.

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While true, endgame progression isn't just about gear but by which raids your group has been able to overcome. Also, if you don't raid, why gear up at all?

As for what players who aren't raiding do, my guess would be unsub until there's more story content added, since Yoshi-P said in an interview that many players do this and that the devs are actually fine with it (the sales from the xpac will carry the team during the lower sub numbers).

If you don't raid, what do YOU do once you've hit the end of the MSQ?

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Originally Posted by Xie_Belvoule

Change everything about FFXIV so it's just a WoW clone.

No one who's actually a fan of XIV would ever say something like this.... except the OP did. Hmmmm guess he's not a fan then.

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Making the story quest not gate content ≠ turning XIV into a WoW clone.

XIV is already a WoW clone: everything in XIV's player progression, from the level cap being raised via expansions to collecting gear to raise your item level, to quests ferrying you from zone to zone, is taken directly from WoW (which took some of this from Everquest, if we're being honest).

One of the key reasons Yoshi-P was chosen for his role is his extensive knowledge of and experience with western MMOs, including WoW. He even talked in an interview about how much time he spent chasing down a copy of Everquest back in the day.

How can people say "OH NOES!! WOW CLONE!!!" and not realize they're playing one?

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All the WoW clones died short anguished deaths yet FFXIV is still around and healthy....clearly SE is doing something wrong.

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The Final Fantasy brand name still holds a lot of sway over people, but XIV is ultimately still around because it's the best-made WoW clone out there that offers enough to its players that it can succeed primarily from selling xpacs.

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Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

Yes, that's true. But it also depends on how someone gives their opinion. If most of their posts boil down to "Well X game did it better" instead of simply explaining how this game could improve, then it's not too egregious to tell them to go and play X game instead of trying to get Y game to copy it.

Which isn't something I'm attempting to accuse this particular OP of, but when looking at some of his posts I can understand why other posters would call him out on it: if he feels that so many aspects of WoW are better than XIV he might be happier going back to WoW instead of trying (in vain) to change XIV to match it.

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I really agree with what you said, maybe OP played the same game for so long that he get used to some feature and now feel that something is missing here while it's not. suggestions are great, trying to change the entire game is not.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

While true, endgame progression isn't just about gear but by which raids your group has been able to overcome. Also, if you don't raid, why gear up at all?

As for what players who aren't raiding do, my guess would be unsub until there's more story content added, since Yoshi-P said in an interview that many players do this and that the devs are actually fine with it (the sales from the xpac will carry the team during the lower sub numbers).

If you don't raid, what do YOU do once you've hit the end of the MSQ?

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Raiding is not a prerequisite for a desire to progress character power ("gear up"). The "need" is irrelevant. Everyone wants to progress their character's power to some degree and gear is the primary method of doing so, particularly once the level cap is reached. It's really as simple as that.

While I can't speak for anyone else, what I do instead of raiding once I've finished the MSQ is work on crafting and gathering, level other jobs I haven't maxed to see their stories, do side quests I may have missed along the way for more story, enjoy events like the Moonfire Faire, I farm tomestones to progress my gear as far as I can without raiding, not because I "need" better gear for any specific reason, but rather simply for the sake of being more powerful because its fun to feel uber. I sometimes farm old content for glamour or mounts. I rarely engage in current ex primals when friends twist my arm. I also work on the old ARR beast tribe reps I havent maxed when I feel a desire to do so.

I don't touch savage raids because I don't have any interest in being tied to a schedule for specific content. I also have no desire to spend my time wiping over and over on a fight till every "gets it" (assuming they ever do). As a former mmo raider I'd be good for that sorta content, but after years of doing it, I just don't have the patience to deal with it anymore. It can be stressful when you find yourselves stuck on a particular fight and hours go by with no progress made. And being expected to show up on a specific schedule... yea I'm just not interested in that anymore. I like my freedom to log on when I want and log off when I want without any obligations or expectations.

Asking me why I "need" better gear if I don't raid is stupid. I don't need it, I want it. It's fun to feel more powerful regardless of if you choose to engage in high difficulty content. My days of being a hardcore raider are behind me. That's just not the stuff I'm interested in anymore and its precisely why I play FFXIV now instead of other MMO's that emphasize raiding as the endgame.

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Originally Posted by Charoy

I play for the endgame content and the satisfaction of clearing it when its relevant.

I think this game just lacks the hardcore pve community WoW has, I can't imagine a WoW expansion launching without a proper raid with no one complaining ...

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Have you done savage? Omega normal is your LFR.

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Originally Posted by Snow_Princess

The raiding is not demanding here... it is just memorizing scripted events.

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By that logic everything is easy if you just remember what to do.

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Originally Posted by Snow_Princess

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Now, one thing I would be OK with is perhaps if you wanted to craft and gather only, perhaps a secondary way could be found into the Heavensward and Stormblood areas. Perhaps have the story revolve around how you are some super famous well known crafter/gatherer and that they would love to do business with you? I'm not so sure. I want to keep the story engaging, but at the same time I can understand the concerns here. Just outright removing the gating so a level 1 fresh newbie can go to Ishgard, that I don't want. But a non-battle character who has developed a reputation for their crafting and/or gathering being invited in? That I can accept.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

I frequent the more mainstream gaming websites a lot, and whenever someone mentions they tried to get into FFXIV but quit, the reason is ALWAYS either the Titan arc, zerg rush Castrum Meridanum/Praetorium, or the Lv. 50 ARR main story quests. The devs essentially acting as if the story jump potions are a solution is unbelievably bad PR.

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This is precisely why the jump potion should have been bundled with Stormblood. Just make it ARR's, thus leaving Heavensward the starting ground for players disinterested by the story. Granted, I suppose the concern is that may kill off ARR content, but how long can they really expect it to last? I certainly don't want to go back to Copperbell or Titan after level 80-90.