A talent system

Shurrikhan I feel like you didn't read the reply I gave you. I also played WOW for 10 years and ffxi for 15. Do you recall when frost DK was the spec to raid with , and most groups wouldn't take an unholy because they did not pump out the same numbers? In the early vanilla days there were lots of classes that were one spec or gtfo. This actually happened , and it happened often across many of the jobs ,and classes. In final fantasy XI people wouldn't take you based on racial choices... let that one sink in for a second. I'm not sure how you missed these behaviors they were common place even back in vanilla. More than likely this is what brought about dual specialization. But I am actually happy for you to have never experienced any of this ,although I am unsure how you completely missed it.

It's ok I take no offense, I just think you missed my meaning.

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Originally Posted by Elfidan

Shurrikhan I feel like you didn't read the reply I gave you.

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Give me a second. I may have confused you with another red-hatted lalafell.

Edit: No, it's there... Every word you've written on this thread until this last post has ended up inside a quote box on one of my posts as well.

As for the new:

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Originally Posted by Elfidan

Do you recall when frost DK was the spec to raid with , and most groups wouldn't take an unholy because they did not pump out the same numbers? In the early vanilla days there were lots of classes that were one spec or gtfo. This actually happened , and it happened often across many of the jobs ,and classes. In final fantasy XI people wouldn't take you based on racial choices... let that one sink in for a second. I'm not sure how you missed these behaviors they were common place even back in vanilla. More than likely this is what brought about dual specialization. But I am actually happy for you to have never experienced any of this ,although I am unsure how you completely missed it.

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In Vanilla, balance was atrocious, though. Certain specs could actually outperform each other by a good 40%, so there was decent reason for these reactions. Class balance was a mess, too. And gear-scaling, of all things (naked rogues killing raid-gear players). Racial traits were also huge compared to now. Forget being held back by specs... ANYTHING could get you removed; lack of BossMods addon nonexempt (and probably for the best reason of them all, at least in large raids with large friendly fire potential). It's not exactly a fair situation to blame on the concept, or even the execution, of specs alone. But end-game also wasn't the point of the game back then, which is what allowed such abysmal balance at the time. If you could actually just assemble the 40-man raid, and not have over a quarter d/c, and had the majority clicking buttons, and the bomb-guy didn't blow you up (even if it meant giving him penalty corner time for the entire encounter), you cleared content. A very different time. I mean, have you seen Nefarion? There is no way the end-boss of Vanilla was intended for anything more, at core, than shits and giggles. You do not murder people with class-based irony and giraffe transformations in serious content. And yet... people will try seriously to clear it, if only to make up for those few d/cs and mechanical failures more. And kudos to them.

Also I simply missed it by coincidentally really enjoying all forms of Warrior, Combat Rogue, and Marksmanship Hunter. Lucky break.

The cross role system is the FFXIV equivalent to talents.

The fact that you would want to add more moving parts to a system that is horribly skewed is what baffles me. Yes I remember Nefarian , but more importantly paying someone to mind control the goblin to teach me how to make the ingot, You don't see details like these nowadays... Back to the topic specializations would cause rifts for the player base because people like what they like , and sometimes it isn't the best which makes them the odd man/woman out. So yes I remain fervently opposed to the idea. #Jobpointssuckedbeforesomeoneelsebringsthosenightmaresup

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Originally Posted by Elfidan

The fact that you would want to add more moving parts to a system that is horribly skewed is what baffles me. #Jobpointssuckedbeforesomeoneelsebringsthosenightmaresup

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Again, I'm not promoting MORE moving parts (unless there were just some massive obvious design opportunity where not doing so would be blatant waste, and that's just not the case right now), and certainly not for their own sake. I'm saying that I think there are some possibilities that would provide choice in more than name alone if we were to replace Roll Skills (i.e. choice in name alone) that could augment the game experience. To me the best options are either (a) merely axe Role Skills, or (b) replace Role Skills, and I personally favor (b). Simply put, I just don't think that all customization-other-than-jobs ideas are necessarily bad for XIV, as long as the customization is used efficiently (typically by NOT systemizing it to the same 51 or 21 points across 3 trees or a 10x3 grid or skills acquired at 1,2,4,8,12,18,22,26... for every job despite their extant differences).

And yes, those should have died when physical levels did. But they're gone and now we can forget.

They can't even balance three tanks properly though. Why would you want them to try it with nine or more variants? Say they do , and one is the "TOP WAR" etc. , then why ever take any of the others? This causes player choices to become trivial. The reason Role Action works so well for so many is that it isn't set in stone. For example me and you are in a party and you are heavily AOE DPSing so on the fly I swap my provoke out for the AOE version. This honestly feels really good in practice. If anything there needs to be more role action variety to allow more of this to happen.

The arguements for talents both for and against all have valid points and concerns. Personally, I feel if they are going to do talents then it needs to be more like vanilla/bs wow rather than current wow. Current wow doesn't really have choices outside of a couple tiers in certain specific instances.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

The cross role system is the FFXIV equivalent to talents.

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No it's not. It began as a way for others of the role to get things they should have had in the first place. I mean seriously how are they going to put into the game tank swap mechanics but war had no taunt/provoke? They had to lvl glad to get it when they should have had it all along. The role actions are not really choices. Each role has the same set they take which maybe 1 that is swapped based on the fight.

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Originally Posted by Ariyn

Personally, I feel if they are going to do talents then it needs to be more like vanilla/bs wow rather than current wow.

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Even then, you still had the cookie cutter dilemma, where providing more option would ultimately lead to less option. Sure, you might find one or two builds that may break the meta, but at the end of the day, if you didn't have the absolute best build, you weren't worth bringing into content.

You also said one thing that promotes the argument against choice:

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Originally Posted by Ariyn

The role actions are not really choices. Each role has the same set they take which maybe 1 that is swapped based on the fight.

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Although you refer to the current system, the fact that choice is an illusion in this regard just as easily applies to anything that offers choice in regards to character development, including talents.

People talk about the Meta and what's optimal but how many of you do Savage Raiding, the only place where the Meta actually matters?
And even then, you have groups clearing Savage content with jobs or party comps that are suboptimal.
I'm not saying we need Talent System or anything but talking about what's optimal in this game is a moot point. :B

To get on the topic of a Talent System, I wouldn't mind them adding one in IF they did it with two-or-three builds in mind versus just throwing in a bunch of abilities at random.
Granted, I don't think the Dev team would want to do that much work...

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Originally Posted by BubblyBoar

The problem with a talent system in this game is that if you create an alternate route of skills for a different build, you are essentially making a new job and naming it the same as one that already exists. Might as well just keep it a new job.

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This I have to agree with. :B