Can Summoners Get Some Of These Combat Changes?

It doesn't matter. A Scholar is a healer, an Arcanist is a DPS. That alone is absurd combination and I don't know who even though it could work out when they made Arcanist progress into either a Summoner or a Scholar.

There is nothing stopping them from changing the DoT-based Arcanist into whatever sort of pet user, or force user, they want once they separate it from the Summoner. It's still going to be a lot less work than remaking Arcanist to become a healer class. And DPS class should not ever turn into a healer class...period. Not in a game where hybrids are not allowed due to fixed party setups in standard content.

It also doesn't really matter because the goal here is to not simply say "Delete SMN", "Overhaul SMN", "SMN is insulting", because all of that is old stuff and pointless. The goal is to help improve on FFXIV's SMN not some other SMN. So please refrain from saying things like that. Because not only will they never ever overhaul SMN in a patch, there are alot of people, including me who enjoy SMN right now.

Theres really nothing wrong with the way Arcanist can turn into a healer class since it can ALSO turn into a DPS class, so people have a choice to switch to healer or remain dps. it also won't matter after level 30 anyway.

What needs to be fixed is summoner balance.

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

Theres really nothing wrong with the way Arcanist can turn into a healer class since it can ALSO turn into a DPS class, so people have a choice to switch to healer or remain dps. it also won't matter after level 30 anyway.

What needs to be fixed is summoner balance.

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Please actually read what is written. We're talking about the possibility of separating the Summoner and Scholar from each other, so there would be NO link. That means an Arcanist would turn ONLY into a healer...And that's what they are proposing here, while I say THAT is ridiculous.

And there is a problem with Arcanist turning into a healer, ESPECIALLY now. This very topic is largely caused by that. If there was no Scholar, Summoners in Stormblood would be far less messed up. That's because Arcanists would be made with only DPS in mind, thus they could be balanced easier. As it is now, you cannot give them too much DPS or Scholar will end up as a DPS class in the healers role. If you give them healers-level of DPS though, then we have Summoner that is a DPS with below-DPS...well...damage. Meaning that to get up to par with others, their Summoner-only skills, of which there is a limited amount, need to be noticeably stronger. But that makes other issues, as these skills would overshadow pre-Summoner skills. Not to mention, there is less space for utility abilities to go around.

Result?! We have a DPS that lacks tools he should have, only because his foundations are shared with a different class role.

Mind you, this is not the only reason for why Summoners have problems. But it IS part of the problem. I'm almost certain that Bane was nerfed so heavily for that very reason, for example. It just can't work when DPS and healers require different tools.

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Originally Posted by Magic-Mal

In a 1v1 Single-target damage race, with no stacks allowed, SCH would win because Broil II xD. That's not good!

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Is this relevant for some reason? You're supposed to use your stacks as a Summoner and unlike a Scholar you'll always want to put your stacks into something that'll boost your damage.

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Originally Posted by Sayora

Is this relevant for some reason? You're supposed to use your stacks as a Summoner and unlike a Scholar you'll always want to put your stacks into something that'll boost your damage.

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It is relevant because very often you have no stacks and no aetherflow ready. Especially if you just blew stacks on AoE. So at that point you're just using Ruin with Bio III + Miasma III. Remember you only get 3 stacks and Fester/Painflare/Energy Drain is only a 5sec cooldown. So there's a 45sec gap.

But the actual point of the comment was to point out how SCH has a spammable Broil III at like 250 potency and SMN only has Ruin, 100 potency and a 15% chance to use Ruin IV which is only 200 potency...

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Originally Posted by Magic-Mal

It is relevant because very often you have no stacks and no aetherflow ready. Especially if you just blew stacks on AoE. So at that point you're just using Ruin with Bio III + Miasma III. Remember you only get 3 stacks and Fester/Painflare/Energy Drain is only a 5sec cooldown. So there's a 45sec gap.

But the actual point of the comment was to point out how SCH has a spammable Broil III at like 250 potency and SMN only has Ruin, 100 potency and a 15% chance to use Ruin IV which is only 200 potency...

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But the dots hit harder, Fester has double the potency of Energy Drain, and you have a pet that's attacking too. Not to mention Tri Disaster buffs Ruin potency by 20 for 15 seconds.

Broil II may have 80 potency over Ruin III and 30 potency over Ruin IV, and that might feel bad, but there are other factors to take into consideration.

1. If you let your pet die you need to be punished, this is how they do that. You have swiftcast on a 1 minute GCD if you do happen to let your pet die so it really isn't that punishing...

2. Not needed and would be OP. We can match most other jobs AoE dps while beating them in single target focus on a target. That is our AoE flavor. If they give us spammable AoE then they need to nerf other parts of our AoE kit because then we are OP again.

3. There are other more pressing issues with gameplay that need to be addressed. DoTs feel hollow with only having 2 and them both being on the same timer. Ruin spam 95% of the time is boring, Ruin IV requiring no interaction from the player is boring, Bahamut was just them be lazy and is ultimately boring. If they want to shift focus to pets that is fine, but make interacting with them engaging. But that would also require them to make pets more responsive....so probably not a good idea for them to go that route since it is still an issue 4 years later.

4. Not needed. Only thing you need sustain for is POTD solo runs. If we get it cool, by no means a priority though. Wasting GCDs on sustain is a dps loss. Manage your pet and if it does die the swiftcast summon.

5. SMN damage isn't the issue. RDM is just better, period. They have too much utility and are too good for progression. RDM utility needs to be hit. Not to mention SMN is punished very heavily for deaths. If they touch anything other than making the gameplay more interesting this is it.

6. Again they just need to fix pet responsiveness in general. Not holding my breath though.

7. Again, not needed. They need to make the class more engaging by fixing other things.

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Originally Posted by Sayora

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I was actually doing some noobie math after I responded to your first response lol.

I made it a 30sec damage test starting with DoTs in Single-target with a 2.5 GCD

Scholar:
+ Miasma(230 potency)
+ Bio II(350 potency)
+ 10 Broil IIs (2,300 potency)
_____________________________
2,880


Summoner:
+ Bio III(400 potency)
+ Miasma III(450 potency)
+ 10 Ruins(1,000 potency)
___________________________
1,850 potency :(

Even with Tri-Disaster ruins would only end up as 1,200 potency. You would have no choice but to use all 3 Festers. If you use just Festers and no Disaster you'll only end up at 2,750 >.<

Of course this only face value math but for a whole 30secs SMNs aren't doing damage. And that's just 30 not 45. But in the end there's no reason why the downtime should be that hard...

EDIT: Also did simple math on DRG Full Thrust combo with Heavy Thrust and 2 combos makes 1,909! Not including auto-attack

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Originally Posted by Magic-Mal

Of course this only face value math but for a whole 30secs SMNs aren't doing damage. And that's just 30 not 45. But in the end there's no reason why the downtime should be that hard...

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Add garuda to this.
Tho I am kinda agree with this. There are times when I don't have stacks, and very little mp for r3 spam... and kinda DPS doesn't rly show it but at this times my contribution to raid damage is pretty meh. Especially if there's adds or dps checks or smthn. Obviously this should be countered with planning etc. but eh. Planning is good and all but with 4.0 smn it's just not fun at all.
Also literally fake summoner dps...