Extreme Undercutting - Should it be a violation?

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

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Sorry for the double post but to wrap this up


You have to remember, this game is not WoW nor RS and you cannot treat it as such because all their own reasons, petty or justified, for implementing such a controlling policy. We don't always get what we want and sometimes we can get it faster than others, but at what price? It's up to you, op, to determine what you will invest in this market and what you use your gil on.

In the end eventually when the dust all settles, who is really the victims here? You or them? Losing sucks op, everyone here knows that, but sometimes you got to bite the bullet rather than paint yourself a victim of a flaw in the market system, because there are still profits to made elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by Memoriae

The answer depends on the seller. If the seller is willing to loose out on a huge profit they are either stupid or desprate for gil. And if you were smart knowning the item was still a high demand item, you could have bought said items and turn it into profit.

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Your waifu is stupid and desperate for gil. People can, get this, actually not care and just want the item out of their inventory.

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Originally Posted by DaikiKiyoshi

I always undercut by 1 Gil. No it shouldn't be a violation. It's free market. Everyone should learn to deal with it.

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My thoughts exactly. If people were undercutting by 1 gil prices wouldn't tank so bad

If it is a single item, buy it and resell it for the normal price

What on Earth did the OP hope to achieve by reporting themselves to a GM?

Are you just looking to quit or are you wishing to become some kind of anti-capitalist martyr?

No, undercutting by however much you want to undercut is perfectly fine. But let's look at the reasons why you might want to massively undercut?

1. You are an idiot: You don't know how money works, or you can't read and chose your undercut price by mashing your keyboard into your forehead until the game allowed you to put the item up for sale. This is a silly example; if folks like this even exist, they are very rare and not worth considering. Their underpriced item will sell quickly, and have no effect on the markets as a whole.

2. You can see the market changing: You're among the first to discover that an item that used to be difficult to obtain is now easy. Perhaps an NPC has been added that provides it, or you found out that you can get it by desynthing certain common items. It's time to unload your stock, pronto, before the market crashes all on its own. The market's going to change, no matter what you do, so it's time to gather what scraps of cash you can! Far too many mistake these people for those in example 1. Learning to read a market is how the most successful sellers stay ahead of the game.

3. You are a mogul who wants to control the market. You sell at well below the costs of manufacture in the hopes of driving others out of the market so you can claim a monopoly once everyone else is gone. Sadly, you are not a very smart mogul, as you are trying to apply real-world capitalism to a virtual economy - while you may drive others out of a market for a time, as soon as you start to hike up prices to take advantage of your monopoly, everyone will come flooding right back in. Unlike in real life, there are no start-up costs for entering a market. None of your competitors have gone bankrupt due to your shady practices, and all of them are ready to compete again the moment you allow it. So your window for Monopoly Big Profit is extraordinarily small, likely MUCH smaller than the amount you lost trying to crash the market in the first place, resulting in a resounding net loss. Just as with the overstock example, once you stop meddling the market will gradually return to normal. This type of individual is very uncommon, because usually if someone has become a mogul in the first place, they are not stupid, and wouldn't make this kind of boneheaded mistake.

4. You are WAY overstocked on that item: You somehow acquired way more of the item than the market can sustain, and it's cluttering your inventory. Perhaps you crafted a ton trying to level up, or maybe you THOUGHT the item was going to be worth more than it actually is and obtained a ton of it to cash in. You want to sell it FAST, and so you greatly undercut others. This may affect the market prices for a while, but once you run out of stock the market will gradually recover to normal prices. This type of person is often suspected of being type number 3, since they flood the market with cheap product.

The long and short of it is, no individual can make a lasting dent in a market. They will either be a blip on the radar, or their influence will last only as long as they are able to provide product. Any seller who gets frustrated by this needs to learn to diversify. When a product dips in price, that should be the signal to move on to a different product, not throw a hissy fit and start reporting people or rant angrily on the forums. When a market suffers a lasting change, it's due to overall economic pressures. Smart sellers will bend with the wind. Stupid sellers will whine and complain that the item that used to make them money no longer does.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

I'm trying to open a discussion on whether or not 90% undercutting with the intention of market crashing should be a punishable offence, using the GM response I had as a catalyst to spark discussion. Given how heated things got in a different thread because I let my temper get the better of me, I realised it warranted its own thread with its own discussion. That way we can pull the previous thread (which was to do with DPS queues) back on topic.

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This is a pointless topic. If someone wants to attempt to crash the market with extreme undercutting (like 90%), then I will be more than happy to buy out their stock to restore the market to normality. :)

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Originally Posted by Mature

My thoughts exactly. If people were undercutting by 1 gil prices wouldn't tank so bad

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When prices tank, it's an opportunity to buy, rather than sell. When prices rebound (which ultimately they probably will), you can sell the items back into the market again slowly.

Of course, it's speculating, so there is a risk...

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Originally Posted by Pondera

I'm curious. How far are you undercutting? If you're undercutting by 1 gil, that's extraordinarily annoying, but swiftly countered by the original offer maker the next time they log in. If you're undercutting by a significant amount (over 20%), then you probably hate money. Your offers will be the only things people see and will pay attention to, and you'll swiftly run out of stock. The sales for high demand items undercut in this way are often so quick that it's likely the others won't even have noticed you to begin with, and things will be back to normal very quickly. Capitalism is a very organic and self-adjusting thing and nowhere is this more true than on player-made economies.

Bottom line, no, I do not think it is a violation.

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If buyers are making smart decisions, then undercurrting by 1gil doesn't impact buying decisions since it's next to zero compared to taxes when buying out of your home market.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

Well from what I've heard, extreme undercutting with the aim of trying to crash a market (as in drive the prices down), is an offence in WoW and people do get banned for it.

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If the market crashes as a result, then the item was priced excessively high. I made my initial fortune "crashing the market" on crafted ilvl 90 gear when it was a couple months old. The gear was listed (but rarely selling) on the MB at 500%+ profit. I flooded the market with everything listed at 50-100% profit (around what people charge off the MB), and sold more of the items in 1 week than had sold in 2 months on the MB. Other people started listing at reasonable prices, and I left a healthy market with 40M profit or so.

If the market crashes, it just means the item was horribly overpriced. Otherwise, someone will quickly buy it up and relist for an easy profit.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

No, undercutting by however much you want to undercut is perfectly fine. But let's look at the reasons why you might want to massively undercut?

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5. You've had x item on the board for a month at the same price as everyone else and it hasn't sold yet.
6. You're just clearing out your retainer and rather stuff would go to someone who wants it than a vendor or the trash.
7. It's all make believe money and nobody is going to go hungry if they can't sell all of their adamantite ore before you do.