Selling clears maybe within the rules of the game - but is it within the spirit?

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Originally Posted by revonine

The reality is there are 3 or 4 people I see advertising their services almost daily on the party finder. Sellers aren't in it for anyone only themselves to line their own pockets. If they we're helping people they'd set up a learning party for them perhaps solicit a few of their friends that also know mechanics and get them a clear.
But I get it I really do, it's about supply and demand. But it's a damn shame.

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Except people who sell clears also help their friends/FC mates for free so saying they are only in it for themselves is simply not true.

Why would anyone expect to get something for free, at the very least you need to make friends or join a good FC who's willing to help people, why would you expect people to give up their limited playtime for someone they might never see again?

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Originally Posted by Kitano123

Except people who sell clears also help their friends/FC mates for free so saying they are only in it for themselves is simply not true.

Why would anyone expect to get something for free, at the very least you need to make friends or join a good FC who's willing to help people, why would you expect people to give up their limited playtime for someone they might never see again?

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Well of course they are gonna help out their friends and FC mates! I was questioning their motives. Nothing else.

I never expect anything for free. However are you telling me you never joined a random PF just to help out before?

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Originally Posted by revonine

The reality is there are 3 or 4 people I see advertising their services almost daily on the party finder. Sellers aren't in it for anyone only themselves to line their own pockets. If they we're helping people they'd set up a learning party for them perhaps solicit a few of their friends that also know mechanics and get them a clear.
But I get it I really do, it's about supply and demand. But it's a damn shame.

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I imagine many of them see it as offering a service rather than taking advantage of the desperate, I mean just take a look at people who sell houses since most of them try to spin the argument that they are actually being generous and helping people get a home, even those that try to pull massive profit from it. Similarly with melding, many people feel like they are helping out, but at the same time I believe most readily accept tips - whereas, personally, I don't really like that myself since it takes 0 effort, practically no time and I can't find a good enough reason to let someone give their money to me for it. So I think it all comes down to subjective interpretation. What you and I more perceive as generous may not be the case for others.

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Originally Posted by Knahli

I imagine many of them see it as offering a service rather than taking advantage of the desperate, I mean just take a look at people who sell houses since most of them try to spin the argument that they are actually being generous and helping people get a home, even those that try to pull massive profit from it.

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I don't get it, why is run selling equivalent of "taking advantage"? In some cases its pretty difficult work so I expect people to be compensated for their time and skill. Now its everyone's right to decide how much their time/skill is worth (free in cases where friends are being helped). 7 manning some of these endgame raids is no joke.

I enjoy beating video games. It defeats the purpose to pay someone to beat something for you. The challenge was set for you. Not for you to pay someone else to do it for you. Though In doing so you inadvertently beat it anyways. And that's technically just another way to beat it. So now we're stuck in a spiral of mischief! haha


I think the fundamental answer lies in just about any game, whether it be single player or multiplayer. Would you Pay someone to beat the final boss, or extra bosses on... Pick a game. Catherine for example. For these types of games the answer is probably going to be a unanimous "No". And that's fundamentally your answer.

That being said circumstances are different in an MMO. You can come across a plethora of different scenarios I won't go over here for the sake of the length of this post, which lead back to the reason you're unable to do said piece of content regardless of it being you or the people around you. So though I don't subscribe to the idea of paying for a group to carry me through a piece of content. I can understand why someone would pay for it. And it doesn't bother me one way or the other.

That also being said, I did pay to get my first Titan Hard clear for my Bow way back when. But I didn't know very many people back then, and every attempt I made resulted in failure. It felt sorta cheap and like I got ripped off cuz I knew I could do it, but MMOs come with other kinds of challenges.
Ones single players don't have. That doesn't make one superior to the other. It's just different is all.

I'd rather urge a player to overcome this problem through meeting people and forming relationships with other players, over paying for wins. It's more fun and it's how MMOs are suppose to be played. If you weren't meant to play with other players, why are all the dungeons and stuff 4-24 man/woman content?

Ultimately it's your choice though. Your business isn't my business, and I don't care either way since it doesn't affect me.

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Originally Posted by CookieMonsta

I don't get it, why is run selling equivalent of "taking advantage"? In some cases its pretty difficult work so I expect people to be compensated for their time and skill. Now its everyone's right to decide how much their time/skill is worth (free in cases where friends are being helped). 7 manning some of these endgame raids is no joke.

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I never said that was my personal opinion, but to my understanding it seemed to be at least somewhat implied by the person I was quoting. With that said, in answer to your question, the only conceivable reason for paying for clears in runs - without the intent of reaping rewards such as mounts - is out of some sense of desperation due to having difficulty finding a competent party the old-fashioned and free way. Neither I nor(I am assuming) Revonine doubt that those who sell clears are aware of that. Whether or not they decide to do what they do simply to capitalise on that frustration is something only they can tell you, though I'm sure such instances occur and that could be considered taking advantage in a way - simply because the mentality is:

"I bet we could exploit the annoyance experienced by players who suffered lots of fail runs by offering an easy clear - for a hefty price".

In any case, it doesn't bother me at all, but I can understand how people can feel like it's a bit of a sad sight to see. And just to reiterate, I was not suggesting the practice is inherently underhanded or anything of the sort, but I can see how anyone might feel that way.

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Originally Posted by Tint

selling clears is one of the bigger things that keep the RMT alive. where do you think got most of the people who buy clears their money? sure, there are some rich crafters, but most people will have bought the gil, like they bought the kill...

and because the kill sellers are feeding the RMT i am against the whole kill selling story.

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yep, I find it funny how people bought T9 and T13 clears for millions and now anyone can clear it unsync with 4 or more people.

To be honest I understand why some people buy their clears but .. you can always tell those people from those who actually got the kill by learning and training.
I'm pretty sure most of you are already familiar with lots of players on your servers, those who join farm parties and actually are good.

For example:
I set a PF up with my healer friend.
<another healer joins>

My friend will have 3 reactions:
1: This healer is good i've seen him in other farm parties.
2: Never played with him, lets see how it goes.
3: BAD!! BAD healer!!! idk how he killed it!! DISBAND OR KICK!!

Some buy the kill because they are not lucky with PF. That player probably saw the last 10% of the fight but others kept screwing him over and over. He doesn't belong to a static or have a group of friends or FC to help him. And no one will accept "I've seen him at 1% can I join?" excuse so he has to lift the bonus off.

My opiniun, selling clears does serve a purpose, i have to admit i bought a clear for for my first titan hm kill, as i was gated to enter coil, and i was a noob paladin just started the game, could not get any party willing to let me experiment or practice the fight and i wanted to see what is coil. i ended up selling titan hm myself at some point along with other primals for cheap prices and sometimes someone needed to get his relic done quickly and didnt want to wait a long time to find a decent party. the sells were really cheap back then about 100k per kill or so.

What i am against however, at some point this market has changed, there is a lot of greed on part of the sellers and the sale prices became very high for some instances, such as turn 9 when it was a thing, going upto 80m or 90m millions per a kill at some point. my issue with such is a thing is that, when u sell at that prices u draw in gill sellers and buyers into the game.

the 2nd thing, which i noticed as well, in the recent gordias and midas savage era, due to the heavy dps checks in some of these fights, it was no longer possible to carry people while they are dead, and some groups are asking the seller to give them their logoin details to complete the fight for him. this is definalty not acceptable, and very silly to be honest.

i hate gill sellers and gill buyers and i think they ruin the game some what, as well as the market board, i wish SE would do some thing to stop them.

There's nothing wrong with getting paid for doing a service. It takes time to organize carry parties and if you consider how the payment is divided among 7 other people, the compensation isn't even that high from most customers, who usually buy just one run of something.