1.2 Needs to fix Sentinel, Tanking, and XI Class-ism.

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Originally Posted by rzr22

is a crutch for dumb players.

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thats what sentinel is, its a renewable get out of jail free card.

The dev team made sure that you can beat the fight with barly any invelovement of other classes.

i could probably heal it with CON skills, naked and using solely rampart 1 as a damage mitigator, but that means i have to play flawlessly, and why would i when i have so many options at my disposal? options that i took the time to level.

Don't patch Sentinel, patch the players SE, oh.. wait..

The open-ended system currently in place does not work, and we will likely continue to see restrictions added as time goes on and SE realizes this. However keep in mind that we're going to be seeing some potentially big overhauls to the entire system, including shifting around of skills and such.

Sentinel definitely is not required. When we're taking new members through the fight with our core group, the 7 of us have Sentinel and the 8th sometimes doesn't. Tonight that player did not and survived Hellfire all three fights. There are ways around it and the less resistant you provide to the fight the better. Top tier players will adapt and do what's best for everyone in the end. Do what you want to do, just don't complain about it because you've consciously chosen to take the path of greater resistance in the end. It's a video game ;p

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

Point was: Certain addons, i.e gearscore type also brings in the 'requirement' nature of players, because they'll be looking for x factor. It happens more with add-ons because certain MMOs with them give you full read outs on the player. Much like here, some people require you to have sentinel, even though it's not required but is helpful.

It's just how MMOs are these days.

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I don't think you understand the fact it has been getting designed around the use of addons like DBM for years now. Gearscore didn't give you any new information beyond what normal inspect does, that game also has hard gear checks. Stop trying to take cracks at things you know nothing about.

A class should not require 3-4 other classes to function. If it's going to stay this way then why was PL such a big issue?

I think it's sad that the very limited endgame content is something that most people cant beat in first place.
I do get that we should have challenging fights, and challenging content. I was in a endgame ls in XI for 6 years.
However, making such high requirements is leaving bad taste for an average player.

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Originally Posted by Cichy

I think it's sad that the very limited endgame content is something that most people cant beat in first place.
I do get that we should have challenging fights, and challenging content. I was in a endgame ls in XI for 6 years.
However, making such high requirements is leaving bad taste for an average player.

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Ifrit fight is very VERY simple mechanic wise. the only thing that makes it "hard" is the animation locks and server lag

its not a fight for the ultra elite, anyone with enough attempts should be able to kill him

Thing is, the requirement isn't the high. Getting a class to 36 is approximately half the total exp it takes to get it to 50 if the calculations from awhile back are still the same.

I've never once heard anyone complain that they had to level LNC to get Ferocity II, ARC for RS II, or MRD for Bloodbath II before. Seems like those things, since they help a lot, are "worth" putting the time in, but somehow Sentinel isn't? Maybe I just read these forums regularly enough (they turn brains to mush after a few pages...) but I have never heard complaints about that.

Sentinel is the best job ability in the game. Why wouldn't someone want to have it? Eventually it'll be nerfed but still be somewhat effective. Get it now while it's hot is what I say :p

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Originally Posted by Raijin

Ifrit fight is very VERY simple mechanic wise. the only thing that makes it "hard" is the animation locks and server lag

its not a fight for the ultra elite, anyone with enough attempts should be able to kill him

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Yes, but it doesnt work like that. Currently groups with X setup are the ones going in and wining. A group of friends that has 3 glds, 2 conj, and some archers, unfortunately aren't going to be able to beat it.
I'm not saying the fight is not fun or challenging or w/e. All I'm saying is bit too difficult for a game with virtually no endgame struggling for a subscriber base.

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Originally Posted by GreyJorildyn

Thing is, the requirement isn't the high. Getting a class to 36 is approximately half the total exp it takes to get it to 50 if the calculations from awhile back are still the same.

I've never once heard anyone complain that they had to level LNC to get Ferocity II, ARC for RS II, or MRD for Bloodbath II before. Seems like those things, since they help a lot, are "worth" putting the time in, but somehow Sentinel isn't? Maybe I just read these forums regularly enough (they turn brains to mush after a few pages...) but I have never heard complaints about that.

Sentinel is the best job ability in the game. Why wouldn't someone want to have it? Eventually it'll be nerfed but still be somewhat effective. Get it now while it's hot is what I say :p

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if sentinel gets touched, itll get the emulate treatment, from an extremely powerful skill to an action point waste of time.

hell, while were at it, lets nerf chainspell too since its a pretty damn good skill, blindside gives you guaranteed crit?, better slap a 10 minute timer on that. Hmm, better increase required tp to 1k for second wind 2 as well since its a preety strong heal too, hell give it a 5 min cooldown while were at it. Deflection akes mobs hit for 0? oh no it wont.

in the end, you get wattered down near ulessess abilities that are no longer fun to use.

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Originally Posted by rzr22

But then where's the cut-off point? That's the issue your argument runs into.

Lets pretend Random Idiot has a completely off the wall build. He takes forever to kill things. He dies a lot, but eventually gets there. He now wants to join your group.

Do you say yes or no? No, right? Why? Because his build is bad. It's not efficient. It wastes your time.

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I do like that you're taking the "unusual" role into play here. But I think at some point you really do need to be realistic and less hypothetical. My build is clearly a DPS Thm/Conj, both are 50. I have backup healing as needed, but my primary task is debuff/dots/damage and then to take out a nail. I can, and have survived the hellfire before with emulate/stoneskin/rampart. Furthermore I think I've survived it with just stoneskin/full HP as well.

Like I've said in previous posts, the armory system really does make it so you can play however you want. I think the cut off line needs to be examined to say "ok, so mages will generally level two thm/conj/arcanist(when it is out)," "dps will probably level Mrd/pug," archer could probably go in either of those builds, but it is kind of floating off on it's own right now and will have a companion with musketeer later.

It is practical to have thm and conj both leveled up if you're a mage. It is practical to have gld/mrd leveled as well. Currently tanking is the hardest hit situation in which you are truly required to level three classes to be functional at a minimum. This shouldn't be the case. A gladiator on its own should be able to tank rather effectively. Mages can get away with their class relatively OK as a single class, archer can do it ok as a single class, and probably most other DD's.

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There's a difference between "not required" and "not required, but it sure makes things a lot easier if you do." If your odds of completing some portion of content are increased significantly by using a certain skill, to the playerbase, this becomes required.

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And I am right with you. This definitely crosses the line though when you literally have to level up an obligatory class that you have no desire to play, and has a completely unrelated play-style to say.. a mage, or even archer. This isn't just a skill that say... reduces damage by 5%. It is literally 50-60% making it required.

To prove my point, shadowsear is THM only, ancient magic is Conj only. These are related classes and you can't use their skills? But a move that is so powerful that takes off 50-60% of the damage of hellfire isn't class restricted? If you don't call that OP, I'd hate to see what your definition of OP really is. If SE really wanted us to use sentinel as mages, they could have swapped it to a shield skill, which mages are encouraged to use and level up with.

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Time trumps skill in a lot of cases.

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This is where SE really hurts the most. Time consuming =/= difficult. Monotonous and repetitive time consuming grinds =/= engaging gameplay. Time and soul sucking requirements =/= accessible to new players.

That is what this really is about. SE needs to prevent such a massive barrier from being erected that ultimately drives people away from the game.

The line needs to be drawn before this gets completley out of control. Before you know it, linkshells will require applicants to level every single class to 50. Its outrageous, and as a community we need to step up to SE and say "no, you need to re-examine this skill/mechanic."

You can make engaging and challenging fights; but requiring to level up gladiator for the fight is not a good way to start.

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Now, if your argument is that the fight without Sentinel is only marginally more difficult (or is a crutch for dumb players) and the playerbase is blowing things out of proportion, then you have a point.

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You pretty much hit it on the head with that last statement.

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Originally Posted by Raijin

Ifrit fight is very VERY simple mechanic wise. the only thing that makes it "hard" is the animation locks and server lag

its not a fight for the ultra elite, anyone with enough attempts should be able to kill him

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So very true. This just makes my point of view even more valid that you said this. And what defines you as "ultra elite?" Spending countless hours performing horrible and monotonous grinds just to get that extra skill? No, it should be how you as a character play and perform based on the mechanics of the fight. Unfortunately, with animation lock and server issues, these interfere really with taking gameplay to the next level to elitism.