"Base/Simple" stigma of Paladin and how we must deal with it/prepare for the future.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shining_Tiger_Excalibur

snip

---

Tank forums has usually pretty good discussions going on and they are usually "flame free" compared to general section, tbh all 3 tank jobs need to stick together as there are not many of us(insta ques and perma-adventure in need bonus shows this). Like i have said before WAR's dont need buffs/nerfs imo as they are pretty perfect atm but PLD and DRK needs some love(if next tier is physical heavy DRK's might end in same spot where PLD's are atm, so better give them some love now rather than later), when this happens i hope all 3 are balanced or atleast close to it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brian_

Rage of Halone's potency and enmity are what they are because PLDs only had Rage of Halone in 2.X. If they didn't lower the enmity, you would have some serious enmity juggling issues in multiple tank situations. Anyone that played PLD in 2.X at any reasonable level knows about this problem. But, that was 2.X. With the release of 3.X and the introduction of 2 new PLD combos, there is no reason to not adjust RoH outside of concerns about PLD performance in leveling / synced content.

---

I've ignored this issue because it would need a change at the core (namely ability spread) or the devs to break one of their rules of design (inserting traits post lv50, since this way the abilities change for HW content while leaving the 1-50 game as it was). Two things that I don't see happening anytime soon.

Ideally, the skills shouldn't have enmity built-in to begin with, and the enmity bonuses should be tied to the tank stances; of course, this necessitates introducing the stances MUCH earlier so that low level tanking would remain untouched. Going in that direction would have avoided the "problems" we saw in high level content during ARR (I'm actually quite familiar with aggro juggling between myself and the other tank, but I dealt with that by taking a GCD to use Stoneskin on the tank or simply waiting 1-2 seconds for that tank to use the next step of their enmity combo before continuing my Halone combo).

Quote:

---

The same goes for Shield Swipe. It is still balanced based on 2.X. Based on the average potency of PLD combos in 2.X, Shield Swipe was a very slight DPS gain at a lower TP cost. Based on the average potency of PLD combos in 3.X, Shield Swipe is a DPS loss. They didn't adjust Shield Swipe's potency for 3.X appropriately.

---

I can agree on this. I guess with the increase in stats from gear, Shield Swipe's scaling could get adjusted to remain as it was during ARR and become better for HW content.

Quote:

---

A lot of the other issues are carry overs from 2.X that have always been problems. PLDs just kind of took them in stride because they were still fine for raid content. Now, the problems have mounted to this tipping point. So, it's not only an issue of the meta. It's not good that so many PLD abilities are under performing or unusable based on clear design/balance failures.

---

It's one thing to talk about legit issues, but the crux of the tank comparison has been that PLD doesn't do the DPS a WAR or a DRK can. That's why I said the tank meta is the problem. When the meta focuses on big DPS being expected of an archetype that doesn't exist for the sake of dealing big damage, there's a serious problem.

To me the paladin has always been a supporty type of tank, and aesthetically (if not mechanically) the sword/shield combo does -feel- as though it should be a lower damage option than the warriors with their huge axes.

If the DPS-is-everything meta is going to stay, maybe Paladins should be buffed more to increase -party- dps in some way. Keep their personal DPS where it is but give them something along the lines of Battle Litany as an effect on something, so they can contribute to total party DPS in that sense. Have to be careful that such a buff doesnt push them into must-have territory, but as a concept I think I prefer the idea of paladins doing mediocre personal dps but improving party dps in some way.

Of course right now, Warriors have both the highest personal damage AND are the only tank that brings the damage increasing Slashing debuff. Running PLD/DRK is basically terrible without a ninja. Though I guess running BRD or MCH without a dragoon is pretty meh too. I don't really like classes having to rely on one specific other class's debuff to do max dps.

You realize changing the focus on damage would change the whole meta? it would require dps to be buffed to compensate and reducing damage would have to be a hell of a lot more complex to give the tanks more to do than stand there and do enmity combos. Many former PLDs switched to DRK or even WAR before this whole anti PLD stuff came around and it was because the class is boring by comparison, half of it's tool kit is so situational you'll never use it, let alone actually useful or needed.

Paladin is in a really awkward place right now. They are not the most tanky tank, because it's mostly magical damage, and they've never been the most DPS heavy tank. This leads to a situation where DRK/WAR is now the best combo for Savage. Will the next wing possibly have a lot more physical damage, putting the spotlight on PLD again? Maybe, but at that point, it will already be too late for the PLD community. Even as a WAR main, I don't care if PLD was the superior tank in 2.0 content or not. That's no reason to screw them now. PLD needs something to actually compete with the other tanks. The DPS abilities were a good start, but they were nowhere near as powerful as they should have been. Increase their potencies across the board. There should be no reason for a DRK to get a 400 potency hit, a WAR to get a 500 potency hit, and a PLD to get a pathetic 340 potency hit. There is no authority in Royal Authority. And do something about those utility spells, would you? Divine Veil especially. Too long for the CD, and requiring a heal to activate it is pretty stupid. And Clemency? Come on. There is no reason for such a long cast time on that. Give it 1-1.5 seconds at best. It's not like we can spam it with that massive MP cost anyway. And don't even get me started on Sheltron. 30 seconds for a spell that pretty much ends up blocking an autoattack, can't even pretend to be useful. Extend the CD to 45 seconds, and make it block all attacks for the next 4 seconds. That way, we stop burning it right before the tank buster we popped it for in the first place.

there's no need to create an additional thread to suggest more unrealistic ability changes and job nerfs- there are other threads you can post that in without drawing unwanted attention by the devs. They're pretty good at ignoring ridiculous requests at least which is, I assume, why it's taking so long to hear about any possible PLD changes. For now all we can do is hope they tweak the job as they did ast to make it even somewhat viable in current tanking meta. Our enmity and potencies being so significantly lower in addition to lack of aoe dps just doesn't warrant bringing a PLD over a war+DRK combo in ANY of the games current content. It can be argued that PLD tanks as2 better but at this point healers can keep a war and DRK up np and raid wide dps is much higher/faster that it's simply hindering your raid group while gaining a long casting cure that results in an overall dps loss for your group. Unfortunate, but that's the way it is currently.

Silly question, I'm not paladin but I am healer. Doesn't a pld allow a healer to, like, DPS more? Spam heal a warrior or a drk going frenzy withut tanking stance is nowhere fun for me. >.>;
I just might be silly. But still, it'd make sense, no?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Horobi

Silly question, I'm not paladin but I am healer. Doesn't a pld allow a healer to, like, DPS more? Spam heal a warrior or a drk going frenzy withut tanking stance is nowhere fun for me. >.>;
I just might be silly. But still, it'd make sense, no?

---

In theory. In practice, however, PLD gain maybe 8-10% more mitigation (if the mobs do physical damage only) and are unable to help burst the packs of mobs down as easily as a war or drk. IF the healer manages to do more dps than the war/drk vs. pld difference (significant in the hands of a skilled player) then it would be worthwhile. So if the tank is horrible, yes, PLD will allow the healer to dps more. Any tank utilizing his full skill set however makes the difference quite negligible at best.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Horobi

Silly question, I'm not paladin but I am healer. Doesn't a pld allow a healer to, like, DPS more? Spam heal a warrior or a drk going frenzy withut tanking stance is nowhere fun for me. >.>;
I just might be silly. But still, it'd make sense, no?

---

Most of the time that would be the case for all the tanks allowing you to dps (if they're min/maxed properly.) The issue here is that the outgoing damage required in Savage content is astronomical and as it stands you'll be forced to dps, anyway, at the risk of your tanks dying. In some cases their health drops to 1k. In fact, if you bring a Paladin into A3s and A4s right now, you'll be required to let them almost die as you dps, making up for their damage deficiency.

Okay, I see. Now I'm sad xD thanks for your answers :)