Giving each job a second spec: would it work?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

As for the numerous jobs they could add, I don't think it's really a good idea. The more jobs you have, the less you can keep the game's balance. FFXI is a pretty good example of how lots of jobs are just useless, even it they tried to rotate them with each patch.

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Do you imagine that having specs over jobs reduces the amount of balancing? If two specs on the same class/job have the same role, then one spec which performs better becomes the mandatory choice - this is the 'illusion of choice' problem. Furthermore if one spec of one job is better than everything else it becomes mandatory not just compared to other specs in the same job, but for the entire role. So they're going to have to end up using a lot of time balancing specs, and it's not clear to me why this would be significantly easier than balancing a whole new job.

And that's not even getting into the fact that when you change a job to balance one spec, you're going to have unintended consequences on the other specs in that job.

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Originally Posted by Hix

Do you imagine that having specs over jobs reduces the amount of balancing? If two specs on the same class/job have the same role, then one spec which performs better becomes the mandatory choice - this is the 'illusion of choice' problem. Furthermore if one spec of one job is better than everything else it becomes mandatory not just compared to other specs in the same job, but for the entire role. So they're going to have to end up using a lot of time balancing specs, and it's not clear to me why this would be significantly easier than balancing a whole new job.

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See my previous answer. Most of the time, people won't have control over the party setup, so nothing will ever be mandatory.
Last time I checked, Relics were the absolute best weapons before expansion, yet, it was never mandatory.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

See my previous answer. Most of the time, people won't have control over the party setup, so nothing will ever be mandatory.
Last time I checked, Relics were the absolute best weapons before expansion, yet, it was never mandatory.

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So you think that it's a good idea to have unbalanced classes because the only time class balance matters is Savage Alexander?

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Originally Posted by Hix

So you think that it's a good idea to have unbalanced classes because the only time class balance matters is Savage Alexander?

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I think its a not-as-bad-idea-as having everyone exactly the same :p
I also think that additionnal "specs" of need to play another role, exatcly like SMN and SCH for ACN. If I want to DPS with a spear, I can simply stay DRG, but It could be interesting to play a spear tank, like a Templar.

And besides, if you want to raid, you could chose the "best" spec for one of your classes, and play the other not-optimal classes on easier content, just because, I don't know...it's fun :p

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Originally Posted by Belhi

Either the Fairy would be rather useless or it would share most of a SMNs gameplay minus Dreadwyrm Stance.

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Phoenix stance? =D

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Originally Posted by Drakeos

I miss dual spec job's like FFXI (NIN/War or War/NIN)

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I think that system in a lot of ways was superior to what we have in the current game. It's basically a video game equivalent of multi-classing, where as cross class skills is sort of a limited interpretation of the original sub-job system. The catch with that system is that you either generalized or specialized. Someone who played paladin could sub thief for the sprinting action, but it would make more sense to sub white mage for the additional MP and other stats when dealing with party based activities. The sub-job system didn't change the fact that certain jobs were for tanking, others healing, and others for crowd control or damage dealing.

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Originally Posted by Delily

You mean arcanist, and the design team already said they would not do that again.

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No I meant Scholar. Not Arcanist. Scholar is the healing spec, Summoner the DPS spec. The same Job otherwise - they share gear and levels, other than the weapon.

I don't get why the design team wouldn't do it again - it works very well.

Though I also don't see the need for dual spec'd Jobs / classes. I do however, think that they should add a DPS heavy armor Job, and a Tanking medium armor job.

- And MAYBE some medium or heavy armor Healing jobs, and Light armor Tanking jobs... - but these get conceptually / balance tricky.

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Originally Posted by Delily

This demonstrates ignorance of the issue. The reason the designers don't like the split is because anytime the class's skills are modified, it will impact both jobs, which occupy 2 different roles. If they boost the potency of a DoT or of Ruin, suddenly SCH becomes the preferred healer because they are strong healers and now they're doing more damage. In effect, the sch hampers the ability of the team to balance the smn with other damage roles.

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I can buy that it doesn't fit in the vision SE has for FFXIV. They tried it, it didn't fit, they moved on. I don't have to agree, I could wish they explored it more, since SMN and SCH quite simply work, but it's their vision.

What I don't buy is everyone (not necessarily you specifically, just in general) saying it's a failure, or it's too hard, or it's a terrible choice. All of those apocalyptic descriptions.

Numbers is simply what programmers do. I know, I'm one of them. All you have to do is look at Wanderer's Minuet and Empyreal Arrow/Sidewinder to see that. They upped WM and reduced the potency of EA and SW so that even though EA/SW do less damage during WM post-patch, BRD DPS went up overall. They get the numbers, and that's ignoring problem-solving techniques like applying a SMN-specific tweak before tweaking Ruin, to use your example.

Balancing a variable (Ruin, Wanderer's) is not so difficult that it causes undue hardship to developers. It simply doesn't. At the end of the day, they abandoned dual-jobs/specs out of direction and vision, not difficulty.

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Originally Posted by Makeda

I don't get why the design team wouldn't do it again - it works very well.

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What happens when the potency of Ruin is boosted by 20%? SCH is already on par with WHM for healing, and now they're doing significantly more damage. Guess what job people will start playing and asking for?

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Originally Posted by Saggo

I can buy that it doesn't fit in the vision SE has for FFXIV. They tried it, it didn't fit, they moved on. I don't have to agree, I could wish they explored it more, since SMN and SCH quite simply work, but it's their vision.

What I don't buy is everyone (not necessarily you specifically, just in general) saying it's a failure, or it's too hard, or it's a terrible choice. All of those apocalyptic descriptions.

Numbers is simply what programmers do. I know, I'm one of them. All you have to do is look at Wanderer's Minuet and Empyreal Arrow/Sidewinder to see that. They upped WM and reduced the potency of EA and SW so that even though EA/SW do less damage during WM post-patch, BRD DPS went up overall. They get the numbers, and that's ignoring problem-solving techniques like applying a SMN-specific tweak before tweaking Ruin, to use your example.

Balancing a variable (Ruin, Wanderer's) is not so difficult that it causes undue hardship to developers. It simply doesn't. At the end of the day, they abandoned dual-jobs/specs out of direction and vision, not difficulty.

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You're right. There is very little in the mechanics of FFXIV that are computationally challenging, it's intentionally simple. The issue is how the playerbase will react. As soon as people determine a given job is the best one, overwhelmingly, people will flock to it.