Is Paladin in a Bad Spot?

Ish:

Path is a game changer because it stacks with INT/STR down.

Eye buffs tank damage and NIN damage if you have one.

Burst damage is critical and WAR is the clear winner.

WAR is an everlasting porn star with unlimited TP, unlike one pump chump DRK and his close TP starved cousin PLD. (2:20/2:50 to 0 TP respectively)

WAR can also stance dance both ways. MTing but need defiance? Swap to deliverance FCx2 then swap back. OTing and need to hold an add, swap to defiance IB, swap back and help zerg it. Rotation never gets interrupted.

Alternatively to buffing PLD dps, and thus making all 3 tanks more similar, they could instead opt to increase the PLD's group healing capabilities.

For example giving PLD a slightly weaker version of Medica, or cause Clemencies cast on yourself to heal the rest of the group for ~200 potency.

This would give people a new approach to how they choose which tank to bring, some groups might then opt to 1 heal more fights, with a good PLD providing a significant ammount of healing support.

And as the PLD's gear increases, so does their off-healing, allowing more fights to be 1 healed and preventing them from becoming obsolete due to their terrible dps compared to WAR/DRK. Just an idea.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

FoF increases damage done by 30% for 30 sec (not 20) on a 90 sec CD.

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You are correct. 30s, not 20. My mistake. However I still would not compare Darkside to maim. Maim requires a combo to use and has no additional perks. Darkside, on the other hand, similar to Sword or Shield oath, is on unless the tank drops it. The cast is instant, like an oath or stance, and does not fail unless you run out of mp, which you shouldn't.
Even the dmg increase is not comparable. DS grants access to Dark Arts and blood weapon when not in Grit. The benefits to Darkside far exceed Maim or FoF, and standard off tank practice for drk's is to drop grit and beat the crap out of the boss. I can see how you might say it's not a dps stance when used WITH Grit, but that's like saying sword oath isn't a dps stance when you're using shield oath. You're just not using it. That doesn't make it any less of a dps stance. In OT, out of Grit, it is definitely a dps stance.

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

WAR is an everlasting porn star with unlimited TP, unlike one pump chump DRK and his close TP starved cousin PLD. (2:20/2:50 to 0 TP respectively)

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Tp managment is the bane of a Pld's life. Speed tanks and raid tanks had the issue even before expansion, but now it's a trillion times worse. It gets to the point sometimes that Pld's have to actually nerf their dmg further by slowing down their own rotations to conserve Tp. I dont' normally care that Pld's don't deal the same dmg as drks and wars, but I think a lot of people fail to realize that it also has to do with skill speed, and desperately trying to not flatline your meter.

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Originally Posted by Februs

Snip.

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I swear you don't read lol.

Blood Weapon has No relation what-so-ever with Darkside.

Darkside is a constant "buff" you "pay MP" to upkeep just like Maim is a constant "buff" you "pay combo" to upkeep. Out of Grit, it is simply a damage buff that is up.

Darkside is not a stance because if you pop a stance Darkside stays up. For WAR it's Deliverance vs Defiance (pick 1). For PLD it's SwO vs ShO (pick 1). For MNK it's FoF vs FoE vs FoW (pick 1). No one is calling Opo-Opo form a "stance" because it "enables" crits on Bootshine nor coeurl form a stance because it enables Snap Punch, Demolish and Rock Breaker. Darkside enables Dark Arts just like how Maim enables Wrath/Abandon. And no one is calling Sword Oath a "not a stance" because it doesn't "enable" anything. Darkside is just up at the cost of MP.

EDIT: My point in this is that DRK has the big advantage of being the only tank that "loses the least" when switching from DPS to tank stance! PLD loses the SwO bonus and suffers 20% malus. WAR loses 5% from deliverance, access to Fell Cleave/Decimate and suffers 25% malus. Of course all three tanks pay a price for swapping. (DRK pays 1.3k MP, PLD pays 630 MP twice and WAR loses access to its corner stone mitigation or most powerful attack)

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

Ish:

Path is a game changer because it stacks with INT/STR down.

Eye buffs tank damage and NIN damage if you have one.

Burst damage is critical and WAR is the clear winner.

WAR is an everlasting porn star with unlimited TP, unlike one pump chump DRK and his close TP starved cousin PLD. (2:20/2:50 to 0 TP respectively)

WAR can also stance dance both ways. MTing but need defiance? Swap to deliverance FCx2 then swap back. OTing and need to hold an add, swap to defiance IB, swap back and help zerg it. Rotation never gets interrupted.

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I'm not arguing that WAR isn't a good OT. I'm just saying it isn't the only good OT. I am also saying it is RIGHT UP THERE when it comes to MT.

Also to add to your examples: WAR MT but needs TP? Just switch to Deliverance and pop Equilibrium, 10 seconds later switch back to Defiance. WAR is the only MT that has no TP issues too!

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Again, you are not comparing apples to apples here.

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Firstly, I am fully aware that Bloodweapon is not linked to Darkside. My bad syntax. That does not change the fact that anyone NOT using grit is definitely using BW in DS. If you're not, then you're wasting dps and everyone's time.
Sure, DS is not a dps stance when used with Grit, but out of Grit, it certainly acts more like a stance than a buff. It's an instant cast. Does not require a combo, and provides a flat trait. Consider this, you already said that Pld's oaths are such because they cancel one another. Same can be said of Ds. You say i'm not comparing apples to apples. I say that you're looking at a basket of fruits and only seeing one. Dark Arts is a temporary buff, not a stance, but DS gives too much and takes too little to be considered one. OUTSIDE of Grit, I would argue, that DS is a stance and is ACTIVELY used as one by everyone who has ever off tanked as a Drk.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

I swear you don't read lol.

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I'm starting to wonder if you do lol. EVERY stance in the game trades one thing for another thing. Sword oath drop enmity for dmg. Sheild drops dmg for enmity and acc. How the heck is DS different? MP is somehow specially except? Further, how are are you not picking one. Grit basically kills the dmg buff of Ds. Max Dps, or max enmity. You can't have both. Pick one, as you say. I draw a distinction between Dark Side and Dark arts. You seem not to, which is probably why you see DS as the least fair "buff" in the entire game. I already gave my two cents on the rest what you said in another response, feel free to dig for it if you missed it, but I feel like you won't get anything out of it anyway.

The only Tank job i like its PLD, i dont WANT/CARE about DPS as Tank, i shoulnt, my care its mitigate dmg/ keep agro and mechanic. Rotation its easy so i can focus on mechanic and CDs. If i could ask for something may be to block magical atacks? xD

PPL is just sick with parser lately...

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Originally Posted by Februs

Snip.

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Now you're putting words into my mouth.

When did I say Darkside = Dark Arts and that there is no distinction? How am I not drawing distinction between the two if one is required for the other?

When did I say Darkside is the "least fair buff"? 15% damage with 100% uptime at the cost of 0.5% MP/tick and needs no build-up time? (I'm looking at you Greased Lightning!) Darkside is as strong a buff as any. I never said it isn't "strong" or "fair".

Darkside provides the max DPS you can do when you are in Grit or out of Grit. It maximizes your DPS whither you are in the tank stance or aren't.

Fun fact: Grit does NOT kill the damage buff of Darkside. Without Darkside, you do 20% less damage from base. But with Darkside you 8% less damage than base. Hence "max DPS" in Grit.

Also "stances" do not "trade off". They just add. Fist of Fire is 5% damage increase. Deliverance is 5% increase and access to fell cleave. Defiance is more HP and threat at the cost of damage. The "trade off" happens when you go from one stance to another. Going from base to Shield Oath doesn't automatically make you lose the 50 potency auto-attack boost. Stance "trade-off" is the potential of additional damage vs reduced damage/increased enmity. Since you CAN have Darkside up while in Grit, you do not lose "potential" 15% damage bonus for reduced damage/increased enmity. You gain both.

Darkside is different from Grit, Shield/Sword Oath and Deliverance/Defiance in that you "pay no price" to keep a "stance" up but you pay MP for Darkside, you pay CD for Fight or Flight, you pay GCD for Maim. You can see here that Darkside is in line with FoF and Maim.

A "stance" is mutually exclusive. You cannot have it up with another stance. That is how it is defined in this game. Since Darkside can be up with Grit, one of the two isn't a stance. You pick one.

I really don't understand why SE felt the need to give Warrior, a class full of 0 TP cost GCDs and thus without any real TP issues outside overpower spam, a TP restore cooldown.