So, I hate to open up this can of worms again, but....

No problem, I think we mostly agree on the main point anyway. Which is that a DPS parser would be more useful than harmful.

A parser is a very useful toll and it is completely fair. The whole people will get booted for poor performance excuse is a joke. Healers get booted when they can't keep people alive. Tanks get booted when they continually can't hold enmity. Those roles' performance is easily measured by the eye test and they get held accountable for it. DPS gets a free pass, they are not accountable, that is what isn't fair, not the inclusion of meters. Call me elitist or any other name you want. The reason there is such a loud and vocal opposition to meters is because bad or apathetic players know they can hide as DPS, so most of them choose that role. They don't want you know how truly bad they are. Is what it is.

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

The other option is ignorance. Also not sure if kicking people who can't meet dps checks is all that "horrid." Sure, it'd be better if people helped out, but by the time people are capped and doing endgame, there's a reasonable expectation for people to attempt to learn their role. If they can't do what they signed up to do, then helping them or kicking them are both viable options, one's just more polite. And it goes back to the double-standard of the other roles; if a healer isn't able to meet a heal check it's immediately obvious. Why is it okay for dps to get a pass if they wipe the group? If you have 3 dps at 800+ and one dps at 400 and fail a dps check, it's blamed on all 4 dps. That's not cool.

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oh don't misunderstand, i don't disagree with you, i'm neither for or against parsers personally. In some cases i can see them being very handy in finding out problems, but on the other hand it CAN cause alot of drama/stress for other players both early on and endgame. The major issue isn't the parser itself, but the community and how they'll handle them.

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Originally Posted by Nague

why should we not be able to see everyones dps and kick the low dps when low dps is making the whole group fail?


If a healer doesnt heal, you can kick them and if a tank doesnt get mobs under control and have them running around, you kikc them as well, so i want to kick dps that dont do their job.

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If someones dps is so low it's causing dps check to not be met, you don't really need a parser to see it, at least in DF. For bleeding edge statics, they have their own tools, and help each other improve to meet dps checks.

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Originally Posted by Cylla

A healer not healing and a tank not tanking is one thing, kicking a dps because they aren't doing the dps YOU want is abuse. There are people who will abuse parsing to the point where if someone even slightly doing 50 less then the rest of the group, "Your a scrub" and there the kick. That is abuse in my books. Someone doing slightly less and kicking them is retarded, someone doing a WHOLE lot less then the rest isn't. But since people can't treat a parser the right way it should only be given to see your own dps, not others.

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See i don't get this at all.
People keep trowing the whole "you will be harassed" reason yet i played games that had it either build ingame or addons for that and that almost never happened.

Why not just allow it, let people do their thing and report the harassers.

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For bleeding edge statics, they have their own tools, and help each other improve to meet dps checks.

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Yeah. They are called parsers.

If people are going to primarily use parsers to kick people and wreck df parties, then i'd rather they not be included.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

If people are going to primarily use parsers to kick people and wreck df parties, then i'd rather they not be included.

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But they are not.
All this is a big illusion made out of some weird paranoia.

Look at other games, there is proof this happens way less then some people seem to think.

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Originally Posted by Asierid

Yeah. They are called parsers.

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Parser is just one of many tools they use, Blue Garter themselves even said the tool they use that helps them most, is recording their fights and watching them afterwards to see where they can do better, voip is also used amongst them for faster communication of tactics. I'd say by now that most bleeding edge statics hardly bother with parsers, since most of them know their jobs inside and out, and how to optimize dps.

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Originally Posted by Cylla

A healer not healing and a tank not tanking is one thing, kicking a dps because they aren't doing the dps YOU want is abuse. There are people who will abuse parsing to the point where if someone even slightly doing 50 less then the rest of the group, "Your a scrub" and there the kick. That is abuse in my books. Someone doing slightly less and kicking them is retarded, someone doing a WHOLE lot less then the rest isn't. But since people can't treat a parser the right way it should only be given to see your own dps, not others.

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I won't argue about people abusing others with information provided by parsers... it happens.

However, you are very wrong about kicking a DPS for not putting out enough damage being abuse. It's no different than any other role not performing their job satisfactorily. A DPS not putting out enough damage is the exact same thing as a tank losing threat or a healer not healing well enough. If the DPS check requires all 4 DPS to put out 1k+... then that's the requirement, plain and simple. If you can't meet that requirement and it's causing the team to fail, then you are the problem and kicking is a perfectly valid result (from Party Finder).