Dark Knight : Just another mitigation tank

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Originally Posted by Kaedan94

DRK doesn't feel at all like PLD or WAR. Anyone who's actually played DRK to 60 and done party content knows this.

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You're certainly dismissing our parrying(which originally was a Warrior thing) and the two major CDs we get(Shadowskin and Shadow wall) are just carbon copies of Rampart and Sentinel which are PLD. The mitigation portion there is nothing short of WAR and PLD subpar. How they DPS, yes, play nothing like the two mentioned. But those abilities don't do anything amazing and just leave an empty feeling. At least, that's just how I feel about it anyway.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan94

DRK doesn't feel at all like PLD or WAR. Anyone who's actually played DRK to 60 and done party content knows this.

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What can it do that they can't?

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Originally Posted by Omskahn

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This, in a nutshell. Without being specific to one particular class is the entire point I am trying to make.

Currently DRK is so binary it's not even funny. It has an Enmity combo, it has a Damage combo, it has a few off-GCD damage abilities, it has a few snap enmity abilities, then a whole bunch of mitigation that is copied over from other jobs.

What's unique about it? Oh it has Dark Arts, which partially un-gimps some of its binary abilities.

There is nothing interesting about the mechanics of DRK. It is literally a PLD that does a worse job, while emptying its MP container. It doesn't "play" differently. You simply have to press an extra skill (Dark Arts) before you do your standard PLD rotation.

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

Well, if you didn't say it before...

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Wow, do I really have to repeat myself? "Pop a shield" and the mechanic I mentioned are completely different.

Popping a CD that gives you an instant % reduction is completely different to mitigation that you have to build or work for (as in my example)..

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Originally Posted by Chihaya

Though I have not played DRK that high yet, but at low levels it has quite a bit of MP management to keep darkside up. And with other ability coming later requiring MP and darkside up, I feel that it is already a very different play style.

With PLD and WAR both at 60, I can also say they are relatively different with PLD mainly taking on MT job turtling as they usually do and WAR as OT keeping up storms path/eye and maximizing damage. I would assume for solo tanking Ravana EX, WAR tank would have to split damage for blinding blade unless both vengence and IB are up while PLD can sentinal or rampart/bulwark through them with less problem (though I'd still prefer to split damage). And not to mention unable to take both hits as WAR for Final Liberation (lawlz cant holmgang with no target).

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Bleh, speaking of daily limit, I've hit it - so I'm responding to this here.

Yes it does have quite a bit of MP management to keep Darkside up but here's the catch - when MT'ing anything worth it - you can't really toggle Grit and use Bloodweapon safely unless you trust or wish to put more stress on your healers (and you trust your knowledge of the fight knowing that you're not going to take much damage). Alternatively you can burn one of the binary mitigation CDs and toggle it off while it's up, but it's a fair assumption that you can't really afford to do that later in harder content.

As far as Blood Price goes, if you are MT you are only taking hits from 1 mob. Therefore it doesn't return much MP (as Price is based on a per-hit basis, and isn't dynamic based on how much damage you recieve).

Your final option here is to spam the Delirium combo until you have enough for a DA, which takes a good number of combos. Meanwhile you are obviously not generating much enmity while you're doing this (which usually isn't a big deal, but it's worth pointing out).

You finally have enough for a DA? Good job! Now to burn your entire remaining MP on DA> Carve & Spit. (Well, provided you have enough to keep Darkside up).

I guess the moral of the story is in order to reach full potential on DRK you are pretty much riding your near-empty MP bar, which doesn't really allow you to do anything fantastic with it.
Its ability to manage MP is fairly poor when tanking a single target, so most of the time you are literally spamming Delirium, with the odd Carve & Spit/Souleater. This is also not forgetting the fact that sometimes you need this MP to buff Dark Mind.

I guess my point in typing all of this out is that they need to adjust either the MP consumption, or the ability to manage MP while maintaining competitive damage and main-tanking.

What this all boils down to is a very static rotation of-
Do I have MP?
- If yes, DA > Souleater
- If no, Delirium
(I'm ignoring enmity here, as that's just a standard thing you always have to watch for).

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Originally Posted by Altena

Wow, do I really have to repeat myself? "Pop a shield" and the mechanic I mentioned are completely different.

Popping a CD that gives you an instant % reduction is completely different to mitigation that you have to build or work for (as in my example)..

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It's a mechanic that would instantly get you killed in this game.

Hence the term...tank buster.

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Originally Posted by Asierid

Since we're stretching "logic" here...

So are time travel, warp drives, and hover boards. Point?

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....What? I don't even see how this has any relevance to anything I said. I was saying just because something hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it is impossible. And the difference between these examples and -GAME MECHANICS- is that the former is limited by technology.

....So, yeah...What?

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Originally Posted by Lorielle

....What? I don't even see how this has any relevance to anything I said. I was saying just because something hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it isn't impossible. And the difference between these examples and -GAME MECHANICS- is that the former is limited by technology.

....So, yeah...What?

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Shouldn't attempt to use vague answers then. The correct answer would have been that it "could" be done, but doubtful since the very nature if a self sustaining tank is overpowered in itself. Instead we use some watered down philosophical saying that holds no merit. (And no. WAR is not self sustaining in progression content..before we go there.)

This is what people here fail to realize. Can it be done? Yes. Will it work well with the other tanks? No.

Everyone that wants a lifesteal tank seems to forget that they are a pain in the ass to balance. If you give them enough lifesteal to really make a difference, they end up overpowered as hell long before the end of an expansion. If it's strong enough to be viable early expansion, it [B]will[B]be overpowered later.

Also, DRK trying to tank in FFXI only worked in some very niche circumstances. Even then, you needed some really pro healers to make it work. Did they have dreak spikes and drain spells that returned a good amount of hp? Yes they did. Could you spam those spells in order to make yourself a viable tank? No, you couldn't. They weren't meant to make DRK a viable tank. They were meant to mitigate the hate that healers had for DRK players. DRK had to trade hp for damage in FFXI. When you have a choice of two dps jobs that deal equal damage but one is an mp sponge, it's obvious which will be chosen.

Though I have not played DRK that high yet, but at low levels it has quite a bit of MP management to keep darkside up. And with other ability coming later requiring MP and darkside up, I feel that it is already a very different play style.

With PLD and WAR both at 60, I can also say they are relatively different with PLD mainly taking on MT job turtling as they usually do and WAR as OT keeping up storms path/eye and maximizing damage. I would assume for solo tanking Ravana EX, WAR tank would have to split damage for blinding blade unless both vengence and IB are up while PLD can sentinal or rampart/bulwark through them with less problem (though I'd still prefer to split damage). And not to mention unable to take both hits as WAR for Final Liberation (lawlz cant holmgang with no target).

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Originally Posted by Altena

I am saying something akin to a mechanic that forces the job to push their lifesteal beyond their HP container which generates a shield.
Look at something like Wildfire, but think of it as a self-buff. You pop it, then in order to get the max potential out of that buff, you need to do a certain amount of damage or lifesteal a certain amount of HP. This generates an adlo-style shield (or if you wish to make it more simple, increases your HP container during the buff duration that only lifesteal can heal).

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So... instead of a instant mitigation skill, you pop it 15 seconds before you get hit - hit the mobs a few times and then a shield generates.
And what does this shield do? Absorbs damage aka mitigation - sounds like you just want more work for the same thing - mitigation.
What's wrong with calling this popping a shield - you even called it a shield.

And last post here, shit's getting boring reiterating the same shit. Pretty sure gonna hit that 20 post limit soon

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Originally Posted by Chihaya

And last post here, shit's getting boring reiterating the same shit. Pretty sure gonna hit that 20 post limit soon

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But I want stuff that's different! Give it a gun and the ability to eat random med kits while riding on the back of a bald eagle.