Mass pulls: don't do this.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

Having no enmity on some of the enemies is fine as long as your healer isn't a spaz who heals you before you're done the pull. Stopping to hit everyone is either a huge TP sink (lobs) or will make you eat a lot of unnecessary hits and make you need heals before the pull is done, kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

You can Thrill/Second Wind near the end of your pull to throw out a bit of aggro on everything you've pulled too, it's something that will ward off Regen aggro.

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No. Either learn how to do your job and pull correctly like other PLD's and WAR's can or find another job. It is not up to healers to stress because we can't regen or cure and save your ass (or the rest of the party) because you failed to pull correctly (and do your job) because all the mobs are not correctly aggro'ed, while you're down to 1-2k hitpoints.

If all mobs are not red, you're not doing your job pulling.

Yeah, I agree with tagging all mobs.

1. Not all healers react the same way. Especially in DF where even raid gear can be deceptive. I've had a raid geared healer who couldnt handle the last pull of sastasha HM (3 packs + loads of zombies)
2. Resources should never be an issue for both pld and war if you juggle them right and your aggro generation shouldn't even be in any danger.
3. Taking extra damage from 'stopping' to tag should never happen. Monsters chasing you are actually closer than what you see/think. Both classes have actions that does not use their main resource linked to aoe enmity generation to tag mobs past the first pull action and tagging mobs on the move should be 2nd nature.

Drives me crazy, why are you being lazy putting that pressure on the healer? It's like the tank just says "F-U Healer I'm going to be lazy", meanwhile Healers are hearing it when they stand there and don't DPS.

At the very least I can't be in Cleric Stance at the end of the pull since I have to stabilize the tank. And that may require multiple lustrate stacks depending on the health of the tank, which cuts my DPS even more.

People who don't actually tag proximity enemies or only grab one in a group are the bane of my healing in dungeon runs. This is probably why I get more warrior complications than Paladin ones.

Especially if they run ahead without SS or something to help deal with the burst they're going to receive when they finally stop running.

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Originally Posted by Dynalon

Eh 1 enmity = no enmity, any heal at this point will rip that mob off you, you have to establish enmity on it anyway. I run only WP hard in expert roulette, dont rememeber about WP normal since I have done it only once or twice. Anyway skill wasted.

I have the auto-face disabled because casting skills such as regen when not facing your target will stop your character movement, which kinda sucks if you are dodging stuff at that moment. And I am not gonna enable it just because of SW, blame SE.


1) ofc it is best way to pull them that way if they are so close together
2) 3), fairy never heals me, because during corner pulls I am out of line sight and if I dont have stone skin up I cast the weaker version myself or do a smaller pull, in 99% cases healers in expert roulette cast adlo / stoneskin.

I pop Hallowed Ground when my HP drops to 50% that way healer can dps and we dont have to worry about healing aggro for a moment. When HG is finished I use other cds as needed obviously and healer can decide how to heal further.

Besides when would you want to use Hallowed Ground if not in that case?, those 3 packs do twice more damage than any boss in that dungeon and those 3 packs before second boss are hardest pull there.

Tbh I have done WP hard maybe 40-50 times as tank, mostly with DF groups and never wiped on the trash as far as I can remember. On a healer however I remember few wipes due to tank loosing aggro on mobs out of position.

The fact that you haven't even bother to read last paragraph and that you are pulling out some stuff about my FC (when nobody is actually playing before expansion) and about BLM which I haven't really played for weeks says pretty much everything about you. I judge people based on arguments they make, and you are not worth of my attention.

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1 Enmity = 1Enmity. It appears someone should go back to pre-k and learn math again. And as I said about Circle of Scorn, a skill is as useful as all the applications it can be applied to. In this case, I am applying Provoke's range to my use. It has a range 10 yalms further than Tomahawk and Shield Lob. The reason this is useful is because sometimes, as in the case of these mobs in WP HM where the caster may be further out, it causes the enemies to clump closer together. The skill is off the GCD, meaning a flash can be utilized right away too after its use. So, provoke the closest mobs, and the rest of them will attempt to congregate to one focal point, you. This allows you to go through the now more tightly packed mobs and flash or provoke.

There are three reasons I bring up your FC and their ranking. 1. Can't see your achievements, but can see what your FC has achieved, allowing for a general idea of how their members rank among the player base. 2. The size of the FC can be very telling of a player, since a larger FC has more members to talk to and discuss ideas on game play. In my case, the FC I run has 249 members, allowing for me to use a couple dozen as sounding boards for ideas when it comes to tanking and tanking tactics. New ideas get brought up by new tanks, and we discuss them, their pros and cons, and their applications. This allows for more thorough discussions with more insight from many different tanks' experiences. 3. I bring up their ranking last week when compared to another FC with only 5 members on the same server because it's an indication of poor leadership when an FC with so many more people falls below an FC with so few. Bad leadership means faulty ideas don't get squashed before they become a bad set in habit. There is more desire to let players play how they want, instead of playing their class the best way possible, since one player makes up so much of the FC already, where one player to my FC is a small percentage of my company. They are valued, yes, but I am not afraid to correct them when they are wrong.

Now, about Hallowed Ground. What you originally said is that you pop HG when you reach the end of your pull, not that you pop it when you get to about 50% HP. THIS is better, but not just for the reasons you list. Hallowed Ground is much like stoneskin, in that using it at full HP results in a loss of additional possible mitigation. I am not saying that Stoneskin shouldn't be used at full HP, no. I am saying that Hallowed shouldn't. The reasoning here is that a white mage is likely to use Regen, and a scholar's fairy is going to heal you when you start getting low on hp. If you wait until you reach about 50% hp, then use Hallowed, the regen or the fairy will recover your hp while you are immune to damage still. This results in Hallowed Ground having more innate effectiveness in this way. Do not, however, use it when you get to the end of your pull, since this can also result in a loss of effectiveness. Using it at about 50% hp will mean you should have all the enemies in your pull together now, so that they all hit you now. This is especially important if you're using sprint.

Also, I attempted to read your last paragraph, but about a few sentences in, I quickly realized you didn't understand what it was I was saying. You believe that I use some long drawn out route to pull, when in fact, using the same exact paths to pull that you do, I can still generate significant enmity on all the targets and still take the same amount of damage as you do.

Also, not using the face to target on a tank is significant, as you can't use things like tomahawk, shield lob, and provoke without facing the target either. This is especially important in places like T13 in phase 3, where the off tank is responsible for picking up the adds and moving them to the main tank for AOEs. Your statements simply prove what everyone is saying, you're lazy.

LoS pulling is fine...as long it is done correctly.

A large pull for me begins with me popping sprint. i need to reach max distance and pull the maximum amount of trash i can handle as possible without taking a lot of damage. once that is done, i wait for the trash to bundle up (if a mage/turret is chasing me, around them.) then i pop defensive cool-downs and start building hate. this way every trash mob has the same amount of enmity on them, there aren't any straggler mobs that have less hate than the others, allows dps to burn without worrying about pulling hate without gimping my own ability to generate threat in the process.

the only time this gets complicated is when I'm with a scholar. fairies are normally on obey, but sometimes cast a buff anyway. normally no one does any action besides movement until I've flashed once, or the mobs are positioned in a way that flash will go off before they attack another player.

Hollowed ground is reserved for tricky pulls (like the last one on wp hm) or when I'm pulling an entire large room (the three pulls before the second boss, LB is also used unless everyone is stupidly overgeared).

I don't see what having uneven enmity on enemies has anything to do with keeping agro or losing it. If you face pull, you won't have much enmity at all anyways to begin with. And when you reach the end of your pull, whether you face pulled or generated enmity on everything during the pull, you will still be using your aoe enmity skills on anything above three mobs. Your point makes no difference, since with both ways, you should be out doing the agro of the healer and dps anyways. The only difference is that by generating threat on every mob during the pull, you actually start with more threat already on them than if you face pulled. Rethink your idea here, and forget about what is easy for you, since that will just result in marking you as lazy if you're not generating agro when you have the opportunity and ability to do so.

If you are running directly through the middle of a group because it is the only way to go, then by all means flash them, I'm not advocating just straight face pulling them. What I'm saying is that if me cutting a corner and lobbing 1 while allowing the others just to follow along is the difference between the healer needing to just toss a regen vs having to stabilize me before dpsing then why would I take those extra hits.

The uneven enmity thing probably stems from back when shield oath wasn't as good, if you flashed each pack you just wasted 600 mp on only 3 mobs at a time and that's 2 less flashes on each mob (assuming 3 packs). Was a lot more common for blms to easily pull agro at that point versus now where I can flash until around 40% mp and have no problem holding agro.

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Originally Posted by Ceodore

Also, I attempted to read your last paragraph, but about a few sentences in, I quickly realized you didn't understand what it was I was saying. You believe that I use some long drawn out route to pull, when in fact, using the same exact paths to pull that you do, I can still generate significant enmity on all the targets and still take the same amount of damage as you do.

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You don't take the same amount of damage though, if your close enough to flash because you pulled early and pulled them into a pack then they are close enough to smack you, that's 2 mobs hitting you that otherwise wouldn't have. I get where your coming from about the agro thing to help out healers so that they can mid run stoneskin you, I really do and like I said, any pug I will do the same but if you can't understand that 3>1 then there is really no point in arguing with you.

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Originally Posted by Gorlioliolio

If you are running directly through the middle of a group because it is the only way to go, then by all means flash them, I'm not advocating just straight face pulling them. What I'm saying is that if me cutting a corner and lobbing 1 while allowing the others just to follow along is the difference between the healer needing to just toss a regen vs having to stabilize me before dpsing then why would I take those extra hits.

The uneven enmity thing probably stems from back when shield oath wasn't as good, if you flashed each pack you just wasted 600 mp on only 3 mobs at a time and that's 2 less flashes on each mob (assuming 3 packs). Was a lot more common for blms to easily pull agro at that point versus now where I can flash until around 40% mp and have no problem holding agro.



You don't take the same amount of damage though, if your close enough to flash because you pulled early and pulled them into a pack then they are close enough to smack you, that's 2 mobs hitting you that otherwise wouldn't have. I get where your coming from about the agro thing to help out healers so that they can mid run stoneskin you, I really do and like I said, any pug I will do the same but if you can't understand that 3>1 then there is really no point in arguing with you.

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If you shield lob or tomahawk the first target from 15 yalms away, by the time you make it through them, all three are going to be on you like stink on shit anyways. The only way you might not get hit by all three at the very least once is if you do nothing but face pull on every pack and only flash those that are already close together. You've already stated yourself that you use shield lob and tomahawk to pull a group, by doing anything at all, they are going to close ranks and all hit you at the least once. The ONLY way you might get one or two less hits is if you do absolutely nothing on the pull. In which case, you're fucked side ways if you need any healing at all quickly. Because you've just been sprinting through and not generating agro on anything, you will have stragglers still catching up as you're taking damage from the mobs at the end of your pull. If the healer so much as farts in your direction, you'll lose those stragglers. You also forget that some mobs in this game, especially in dungeons, actually move faster than your sprint. Tonberries in WP normal is one, the ixali in WP HM is another. These enemies will be damaging you even while you're sprinting.

Since it's been brought up several times, let's talk about the pull in WP HM with the three groups. This includes 3 ixali in the first group two melee and one range, 1 melee and 2 rhinos in the second, an independent ranged, and then three melee in the third group. The 3 ixali will be banging on you the whole way, including the melee attackers, since their normal speed is actually faster than your sprint. Further, your sprint doesn't last the whole way. 20 seconds isn't nearly enough to cover the whole distance from door to door. Then, you have the second ranged attacker who you pick up right before the other three melees. If you think any shield is going to last through all this, you're a bigger idiot than I already think you are. These mobs are eating your shield the whole way, and they will get through it, despite your sprinting. You wouldn't be the first tank that I've watched think that both my scholar shields were going to last the whole way only to realize my fairy is already casting her heal on them by the time they reach the second group. And you wouldn't be the first one I saw to think they could proximity agro the enemies and out run them, only to get beat on the whole way like an idiot. They aren't slow enemies at all.

Seriously pointless to argue with you. You are advocating using provoke to start the pull from max distance so you can flash afterwards, well guess what, that first mob just closed the distance, hit you once right there, hit you again as you reach the other 2 because they were stretched out, then the other 2 hit you. In the case of the big wp pull, that caster didn't even close the distance but has already got 2 stones off as you reach his range and your 3rd GCD.

It's no wonder at this point that you need heals and I don't mid pull.

I also play both sch and whm and have run this numerous times on both, my biggest pet peeve is tanks who I need to heal mid pull because they don't know how to not get hit. And any healer that isn't absolutely retarded will run through the tank to make sure any stragglers that might agro them as they top the tank off during agro establishment run directly into the flash/op aoe.