Also worth noting that the Sahagin Chief's Echo caused him to glow Ascian black. Ysayle's did no such thing, leading me to believe her Echo is a Hydaelyn Echo.
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06-06-2015, 09:01 PMViridiana
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06-07-2015, 01:15 AMCilia
(Moose-senpai noticed me!)
I don't really think Ysayle got the Echo from the Ascians or Zodiark, just that she's being manipulated by them. It's just a little ambiguous to me since she's doing the exact opposite of what we're trying to do - chiefly, prevent the summoning and sustenance of Primals - which doesn't make a lot of sense, given one of the few times Hydaelyn directly speaks to is when we're taking on the Ultima Weapon and Lahabrea. If Ysayle got the Echo from Hydaelyn, why wouldn't she tell her not to trust the Ascians...? Then again, Hydaelyn's been strangely quiet since the showdown with Lahabrea, or it could be a gambit by Hydaelyn to get us to end the Dragonsong War... considering she allowed Middy to strip us of her blessing, I'm not putting morally ambiguous decisions above her.
There's still the obvious possibility Ysayle just has Hydaelyn's "version" of the Echo and was / is being manipulated by the Ascians, but I have a bad habit of overthinking things. -
06-07-2015, 02:39 AMmelflomil
There is more than one way to get the final result. Iceheart doing her way and we are doing it another way. Both at the end will yield the same results
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06-07-2015, 03:12 AMCiliaThe difference is our path doesn't involve the wanton slaughter and razing of Ishgard. While Ysayle's method of ending the Dragonsong War is certainly an option, I doubt Hydaelyn would support the massacre of Ishgard's sheeple. That's something more along the lines of what the Ascians would do.Quote:
Originally Posted by melflomil
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06-07-2015, 03:35 AMAnonymooseWe're now out of territory where I can cite things and I'm relying on raw inference, so any and all of this could be wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cilia
Hydaelyn never told any of the raw Echo users even that she was the one giving it to them in 1.0; they just woke up from a nap and started stumbling over what was reality and what was a vision. I suspect that she babied us a little because, in addition to the Echo, we were given the Blessing and acted as her Champion. She clearly spoke to Minfilia and Ysayle a few times, however, so I suspect that you're right that Hydaelyn just went silent after the Praetorium and left Ysayle hanging.
I do think the Ascian connection is clear - if not from the 2.3 dialogue and Nabriales looking on, Urianger offhandedly mentions their likely involvement when she, like the others, returns as an extreme. (Does that mean she willingly sacrificed one of her own to turn them into a ritual talisman? Hm...) Without guidance, there's no telling what point of view she could have been fed. Unlike, for example, Ifrit, who would bleed the world dry to become thought of as the one true god, Shiva didn't seem to demand more to consume (and even Ramuh was controlled enough in his consumption that we more or less set him on the back burner until immediate threats were dealt with). With Iceheart in control and Shiva within her, Ysayle could have been convinced that the danger to Hydaelyn was minimal, at the very least worth it to end a pointless war.
The dragons believe that Ishgard's sons bear their father's sins - if they pay for it with their blood and the war ends, "What of it?" those on their side might ask. All I know is that we'll probably know by the end of Heavensward, lol. (Still, it'd be really nice if we got a whole, sorry about that before we end up side by side at Hraesvelgr's place.) -
06-07-2015, 04:09 AMSamcaesarThis right here is something I find interesting. What if she is trying to stop that from occurring? Think about it, Ishgard is full of devout people, being pushed to the back of the line.. What has this story told us time and time again about worshipers who've been pushed too far? They'll summon a primal. Now, considering how massive Ishgard is, being a city state that it is, and even those who aren't super keen on Ishgard's policy with outsides (Aymeric and the Fortemps house) still seem fairly devout, what if they attempt to summon Halone? And this Halone, considering this isn't just a few Kobolds or Sylphs with a crystal Cache this is a city state with I'm sure a whole lot of crystals, would be their war machine to devastate the Dravanians. Perhaps Ysayle is attempt to stop Ishgard out before that occurs (though she may be manipulated by the Ascians into thinking that's the only way to do things til we bonk her on the head and we go about a massive 3.x story line to end the war without decimating either side).Quote:
Originally Posted by Cilia
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06-07-2015, 05:20 AMPArcher
One thing I've always been curious about and can't find the answer to: Who actually said that summoning Primals is bad for the Mothercrystal?
EDIT: Clarification. The act of summoning is what I'm talking about, and just their existence. Not what they actually do once summoned (ie, tempering, telling their followers to wage war in their name, etc)
Like, I'd love to have Ramuh summoned and as an ally. But we have the notion that their existance is bad. Where is that from? -
06-07-2015, 05:29 AMCiliaThat's... actually something I hadn't thought of. Still, if Ishgard were going to summon a Primal incarnation of Halone, I can't think of a reason they wouldn't have already done so aside from desperation. Desperation does seem to be a key factor in it, but even so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Samcaesar
(Wouldn't it be funny if we do end up fighting Ysayle during 3.x and she's more powerful than Shiva though? I know it's just gameplay, but having her be less threatening in her "Super Saiyan" form is still pretty damn hilarious.)
To be fair, I don't recall anyone ever directly stating this. We're told by Minfilia and Thancred that the summoning and sustenance of a Primal eats up and distorts the flow of aether, but aside from that and Lahabrea stating he wants to use the Primals to create a "chaotic confluence of aether" to hasten Zodiark's rebirth, little mention of the Primals actually being harmful has been made... their tendency to slaughter or temper mortals aside.Quote:
Originally Posted by PArcher
EDIT
You're informed of the effects of Primal summoning and sustenance when you're being debriefed by Minfilia and Thancred post-Ifrit.
Lord of the Inferno, Scene 5.
It's also stated in that scene that aether flows though everything - it's the spirit of the world, making it Hydaelyn's figurative blood - so summoning and maintaining a Primal in the material plane is almost literally toxic to Hydaelyn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thancred
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06-07-2015, 08:37 AMReinhartTo be fair, it's the Scions's plan to prevent and kill Primals that we're following; I'm not sure Hydaelyn has ever told us to "Go. Hunt. Kill Primals." explicitly or such.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cilia
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06-07-2015, 09:01 AMPArcherMaybe I need to clarify again...Quote:
Originally Posted by Cilia
Where is this notion FROM? I didn't play 1.0, so I don't know if this could be found there or not.
Did the Mothercrystal give Minfilia orders that the Primals need to be destroyed, was it Lou that told her? If so, where did he get that info? Was this just from the fact that they essentially wage war on the Spoken races and so need to be destroyed, the fact that they consume aether to sustain themselves a coincidence and reason for the Scions to get involved? Could it have been the Ascians who started this info, and Lou/Minfilia ran with it? Does them consuming aether actually harm the Mothercrystal, or could they perhaps regulate the balance of corrupted/pure aether?
We were never told by the Mothercrystal to kill the Primals...only to gather the Crystals of Light and banish the Darkness. That we gained half the Crystals after defeating Primals seems more a coincidence to me than needing to destroy them to get what we need, especially considering one was gifted to us by Frixio...who was given it himself by Ramuh...
I sometimes wonder if we would do better to get to know the beasttribes and help them, perhaps allying with them and their Primals and work to stop the Ascians together.