Extend Classes into full Jobs?

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Originally Posted by Akiza

It takes more then 5 skills to differentiate Jobs from Classes. Most people wanted Jobs to have different play styles and mechanics form their base class.

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It's not the number of skills but how the skills are designed.

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Lore wise we dump our classes when we get Jobs but gameplay wise we are an extended version of the class.

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This is a problem IMHO.

You play the Class and start to like the lore behind it ... then at Lv 30 you are told to forget about it and play something else. The transition is abrupt to the say the least.

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To be frank, they could have just add a few skills to the base classes and call it a day, e.g. THM + Flare ... We got BLM from THM because players asked for it.

There is a certain cognitive dissonance when talking about "redundancy" given the current state of the Class/Job system. (Not to mention that Archer -> Bard is a tad weird ... What doesn't shooting arrows have to do with playing music?)

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

Classes aren't set in stone. Neither are Jobs. Nothing is impossible.

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This is ever the favorite fall back of people who have nothing of substance to respond with...

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

Ideally they should do away with Classes all together. Have everything be a Job.

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And SE may going forward, they have at least with Dark Knight. However classes exist as they do now to highlight that you can play any class or job on a single Player Character. Cross-class skills reward players for trying more than one. Jobs requiring 30/15 also encourages players to try other classes.

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

Funny you should use ACN as an example. SCH is pretty different from ACN. Vast majority of the skills from ACN aren't used by SCH in their defined role.

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Physick is the number one Healing Spell used by a Scholar. This so even when level synced Scholar will still have a healing Spell. They also make heavy use of Aetherflow, Eye for an Eye, Virus, and Resurrection. Even still a good Scholar or White Mage for that matter is going to DPS and Heal. Else they have great room for improvement. All the skills Scholar use to DPS are from Arcanist.

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

It's kind of dumb that they put so much effort into Class lore then toss it out of the window after Lv 30 - e.g. ROG.

Maybe you don't care about the lore but there are people that do.

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I guess you missed the part connecting the very similar fighting styles of a Rogue (Thancred) and a Ninja (Yugiri).

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

There is a certain cognitive dissonance when talking about "redundancy" given the current state of the Class/Job system. (Not to mention that Archer -> Bard is a tad weird ... What doesn't shooting arrows have to do with playing music?)

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I just had to respond to this...

One of the Sangam literature works, the Kallaadam, contains a story as to how the first yaaḻ harp was created from a bow.

Allen a dale was a wondering Minstrel (depicted as playing a Harp) who in Robin Hood legend became part of Hood's Merry Men. He is cited as inspiration for D&D Bards, and D&D inspired the original Final Fantasy.

Also in the Hobbit, the character named Bard is an Archer. Mythril is from Tolkien Mythology as well.

So yeah...I care about lore too, and there exists plenty of inspirational lore to support Bards to be Archers.

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Originally Posted by dday3six

I just had to respond to this...
One of the Sangam literature works, the Kallaadam, contains a story as to how the first yaaḻ harp was created from a bow.
Allen a dale was a wondering Minstrel (depicted as playing a Harp) who in Robin Hood legend became part of Hood's Merry Men. He is cited as inspiration for D&D Bards, and D&D inspired the original Final Fantasy.
Also in the Hobbit, the character named Bard is an Archer. Mythril is from Tolkien Mythology as well.
So yeah...I care about lore too, and there exists plenty of inspirational lore to support Bards to be Archers.

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The problem I have with the bard and archer thing (and by the same extent, gladiator and paladin) is that the job aspect of it seems incredibly unrepresented, or has very little presence.

Archers are already capable of singing and using a harp (Swiftsong) before ever advancing to a bard. It doesn't help that the 3 songs you gain from bard use the same animation for the cast... or the fact you get rain of death as a job ability when it really seems more like an archer ability. This ultimately dips into redundancy. We're dipping into the territory that we're just bards by name...heck we can't even use the Artemis Bow as both a weapon and the harp for songs (which imo, would be really nice and justify the pre 2.4 relic quest grind a bit more).

As for paladin...the two oaths match what the what the job does; Warrior has defiance to defy and tame their inner beast, represented by wrath stacks and their following abilities). Paladins swear an oath (being an elite guard of the sultana) to hit things with their sword or actually use their shield to protect. But its two abilities (and to this date I'm still wondering why shield oats is level 40 considering GLD's innate mediocre aggro generation) that take out of the job skill pool, and neither do the rest of their abilities really cover the whole paladin thing imo well too.

...that and I personally dislike the paladin questline compared to the other jobs. Lack of feels being tugged and more facepalm where I'd usually see in slyph quests.

But that's just me nit picking on the aesthetics of how the jobs are presented. I personally prefer a functioning gameplay (which they do have) above all else, and aesthetics second. Doesn't mean I still wouldn't want these changes or have ranger/some other physical ranged dps class...

The Hybrid Jobs aren't well represented. Summoner is Arcanist 20 I don't even know why SE calls it a Summoner when it's clearly an Arcanist with a different set of Pets. Bard is Archer 2.0 because the main abilities for the Archer into the Bard. Paladin is a Gladiator 2.0 because they don't have a White Mage skills and a dps stance. The issue is SE over balanced the classes/jobs to the point of them being bland and underwhelming.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

The Hybrid Jobs aren't well represented. Summoner is Arcanist 20 I don't even know why SE calls it a Summoner when it's clearly an Arcanist with a different set of Pets. Bard is Archer 2.0 because the main abilities for the Archer into the Bard. Paladin is a Gladiator 2.0 because they don't have a White Mage skills and a dps stance. The issue is SE over balanced the classes/jobs to the point of them being bland and underwhelming.

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Because it summons the pet...but I'm not sure you know what it is you're even talking about any more. I mean seriously Paladin can and often does use Stoneskin, a White Mage skill, and yeah...just wow...

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

Extending Classes into full Jobs won't really need much reconning.

Existing Jobs will just branch off as they do now. They just need to add extra Job quests for the Class-now-Jobs. (Again, they don't have to do all of them.)

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This is what you want

http://i.imgur.com/0aDbOjD.png

The chart is a little weird though because SMN and ACN should be a single entity until 50+.

However, I'm sure many others would prefer that SMN just get Carbuncle and that time spent making ACN into a job was better spent into making a new class that uses pets in a different way (Beastmaster, Puppetmaster).

edit: I'll fix it afterwards

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Originally Posted by Exstal

This is what you want

http://i.imgur.com/0aDbOjD.png

The chart is a little weird though because SMN and ACN should be a single entity until 50+.

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Well, SMN and ACN should split at 30 too.

They don't have to do it for every class (ideally they should but ...), just those they can come up with ideas for - ACN was suppose to be a Class involving "patterns"; I posted some suggestions in #41 that keeps with current lore.

"Lore behind the Job" is a big part of the reason I started this thread - I find the sudden "change over" quite abrupt; some of us want to continue with the original Class (especially so for ACN since you lose spells when switching to Job). Mechanics was an afterthought that I would leave to SE to figure out - although my ACN suggestion IMHO could be interesting if done well.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

However, I'm sure many others would prefer that SMN just get Carbuncle and that time spent making ACN into a job was better spent into making a new class that uses pets in a different way (Beastmaster, Puppetmaster).

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I would settle for adding of Carbuncles to SMN though - at least I can look the part. :p

PS:

Why the heck did they remove the Carbuncles in the first place?! They could have just upgraded their stats and they would be fine in end-game. (Ya, "redundancy". But it never hurts to have choices right?)

Hmmm, they could give Emerald Carby a "Amplify" ground AoE in place of "Contagion" that increase DoT damage while enemies are in it if they want to differentiate it a bit - also for heaven sakes, remove the cast time from Downburst.

I'm personally happy with BLM. I don't think THM would make a great Job. Conjurers too - I don't see them needing their own job.

As for SMN/Arcanists, I do believe that SMN should obtain Carbuncle, but after that, nothing really.

What if they put the first job quest to level 15? Doing this jobs would be more like a specialization of the classes and could add a new skill sets or traits depending on the soul crystal you have equipped. More or less WoW or other games spec system