Is the PS3(4?) holding back the game?

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

I played XI since 2002

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This means what? Oh right, nothing.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

So..no answer? Understood, since I'm damn sure consoles are technology and hardware because hardware is a technology because it's the technology that drives the hardware to do what it can do.

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You are reaching...I'll give you an A for effort. Technology and Hardware are not the same thing. Besides, I did answer.

I already told you what is holding back pc only mmo's as well, just because you refuse to accept it doesn't make it any less true.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

FFXI and FFXIV ARR have a few more things going for it than what PC only MMOs offer in terms of systems. While ARR is extremely basic in design, for being "held back" they sure went all out graphically and the use of promixity sound that PC only MMOs seem to struggle with - while likewise many PC only MMOs are using standard engines which let them do a bit more (for example far less clipping, which was a design choice and not due to any limitations.)

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Again what are you trying to prove? You are reading into this sideways and your denial that hardware limitations of the ps3 and ps4 do not have an effect the game.

Do you own a ps3 / ps4 / and pc? You can do some comparisons yourself. I'll list a couple things that are affected.

1) Graphics -- Look at the PS3 and PS4 side by side and you will notice a huge difference. Then put a PC with max settings next to a ps4 and you will notice a difference.

2) UI -- Look at the consoles UI and its limitations and compare it to a PC's UI

3) Inventory

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Originally Posted by Ryel

You're trying so hard to make the point that a PC only MMO should have this groundbreaking set of systems and mechanics

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That's my point - If consoles hold back MMOs so much, what's the difference here when a PC only MMO doesn't go above and beyond as is?

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you're missing the simple fact that most modern MMOs designed to hit a large number of average spec PCs would already blow away what the Ps3 is capable of.

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Indeed, compatibility is great - But in terms of game design they're really doing not much different since they became mainstream. TERA was one of the few to actually try to break the mold, but fell flat because outside of its battle system, it was extremely basic as usual.

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Originally Posted by SinisterJoint

This means what? Oh right, nothing.

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It means from experience it's easy to know when SE has and has not used "PS2 limitations" largely as an excuse. It didn't become a popular saying for no reason, after all.

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Originally Posted by Ryel

If I'm understanding correctly and the question is why more PC only MMO developers don't use the full capability of a PC's power to branch out designs and create more unique systems /styles across different games, then the answer has little to do with system specs and more to do with investors.

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That's exactly my point - Limitations mean truly little when MMOs as is doesn't really "deviate" to begin with, so anything that is held back would be so minor that it's more: "I'd like this so I'm disappointed" than "this game will cease to function!", like XI for example, more inventory is great, and ironically, it has more active inventory slots than XIV does (80*4 = 320 mean while XIV has 100 but it's also an icon based system but the tabs are there to allocate memory but there's so much gear in XI even that isn't enough.) but the PS2 didn't hold it back to the point it was never able to run for 12 years and have numerous expansions and continued updates that introduces stuff you'd normally see introduced in an expansion.

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1.0 was a spectacular example of this sadly as 2.0's success can largely be attributed to incorporating systems and ideas we've seen in other modern MMOs while forgoing many of the unique (but failed) ideas that 1.0 tried to run with.

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To be fair to 1.0 though, they made too many core mistakes that made it that much worse - Pushing it out long before it was ready, using an engine no where near suited to running MMORPGs and so on. Which is why 1.23 was seen as "if the game started like this, it would have been amazing, but there's still the problem of the engine." Heck, a majority of ARR's systems are still from 1.0 - 1.23 but toned down or redesigned to fit the 'standard.' So sadly, 1.0 was just one of those misfortunate titles, it wasn't really "innovation" that killed it, it was simply..not ready. If they did it from the get go on a unique engine (like they did for XI and ARR) things probably would have been different.

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It's in expanding on those features that they aren't held back

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This, too is my point. A lot of devs simply stick with "what works" and not really try to go above and beyond even though they have the potential, yet SE shown, even with limitations, they would at least try to. For example with XI, Monstrosity, Nyzul (Assault system), Fracture, Moblin Maze and such can be deemed "basic" systems on paper, yet no other MMO has really attempted to do some of what they did, yet despite "console limitations", they at least tried and succeeded but it had its own set of problems (e.g too great of an RNG on good rewards.)

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

Indeed, compatibility is great - But in terms of game design they're really doing not much different since they became mainstream. TERA was one of the few to actually try to break the mold, but fell flat because outside of its battle system, it was extremely basic as usual.

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unfortunately i think the argument you're trying to make here is separate subject all together.

If I'm understanding correctly and the question is why more PC only MMO developers don't use the full capability of a PC's power to branch out designs and create more unique systems /styles across different games, then the answer has little to do with system specs and more to do with investors.

MMOs are a very risky investment so more devs are willing to attempt to emulate or innovate on things they have seen work in other titles rather than risk (in most cases) millions of dollars on something new and having it fail.

1.0 was a spectacular example of this sadly as 2.0's success can largely be attributed to incorporating systems and ideas we've seen in other modern MMOs while forgoing many of the unique (but failed) ideas that 1.0 tried to run with.

For most PC games this doesn't mean the base of those games suffer however, even if the elements are similar or the systems familiar they put the effort into making them look better or perform better (large scale environments, eye candy, jumping puzzles, world bosses, etc) It's in expanding on those features that they aren't held back

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Originally Posted by SwashBuccaneer

I just wish they were on their own server(s). Sucks trying to do content and your group can't talk because they don't have a keyboard on their consoles.

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Why? Girlfriend uses a keyboard just fine on the ps3. Any USB keyboard can attach to the ps3 and work no problems.

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Originally Posted by SinisterJoint

... your denial that hardware limitations of the ... ps4 do not have an effect the game.

Do you own a ps3 / ps4 / and pc? You can do some comparisons yourself.

1) Graphics -- Look at the PS3 and PS4 side by side and you will notice a huge difference. Then put a PC with max settings next to a ps4 and you will notice a difference.

2) UI -- Look at the consoles UI and its limitations and compare it to a PC's UI

3) Inventory

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WHAT are you BLABLING about??? Currently there is NO PS4 hardware limitation (and no - game file size limit is not hardware limitation, it's limitation placed by Sony on the whole platform and actually even that could have been overcomed by simply using multiply game save files as other games did already on PS3) and I seriously doubt there will be any in forseable future! And yes - I do have and play game on all 3 platforms and I can tell you that I saw not only worse results on some PCs than PS4 but even than PS3.

PS4 have exactly the same UI as PC including expanded inventory. You're simply making idiot of yourself by such "arguments" and frankly you should go first and compare all 3 platforms thoroughly before posting such nonsense ... Please stop mixing "consoles" / PS3 and PS4 together.

If it's not obvious with someone saying their ps3 can't handle it every week lol.

I have it on ps3 and lord, does it run bad. I also have it on PC but ps3 is a back up. I hope they drop support for it soon. This game could have a lot of new stuff and a lot more going for it. Seeing as what all the XI people said about ps2 holding it back, it's only a matter of time.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

That's exactly my point - Limitations mean truly little when MMOs as is doesn't really "deviate" to begin with, so anything that is held back would be so minor that it's more: "I'd like this so I'm disappointed" than "this game will cease to function!", like XI for example, more inventory is great, and ironically, it has more active inventory slots than XIV does (80*4 = 320 mean while XIV has 100 but it's also an icon based system but the tabs are there to allocate memory but there's so much gear in XI even that isn't enough.) but the PS2 didn't hold it back to the point it was never able to run for 12 years and have numerous expansions and continued updates that introduces stuff you'd normally see introduced in an expansion.

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If we're comparing FFXI still, XI got more mileage out of the Ps2 at the time because not only was it released much closer to the beginning of the Ps2's lifecycle (Ps2 release was 2000) so it had time to grow with it, but most of the core systems were initially designed for the Ps2 first and then ported over to windows.

That being said, they did have many memory limitations that hurt them later on as the world stepped into the modern MMO. WoW was able to go back and redesign / remodel entire zones as part of their storyline and even now as old as the game is they're STILL going back to overhaul the character models when their next expansion releases.

There is a large difference between a game surviving for 12 years and thriving for 12 years.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

To be fair to 1.0 though, they made too many core mistakes that made it that much worse - Pushing it out long before it was ready, using an engine no where near suited to running MMORPGs and so on. Which is why 1.23 was seen as "if the game started like this, it would have been amazing, but there's still the problem of the engine." Heck, a majority of ARR's systems are still from 1.0 - 1.23 but toned down or redesigned to fit the 'standard.' So sadly, 1.0 was just one of those misfortunate titles, it wasn't really "innovation" that killed it, it was simply..not ready. If they did it from the get go on a unique engine (like they did for XI and ARR) things probably would have been different.

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And yet even with it's poor engine we had higher res textures, better CS rendering, and a much larger (yet far from perfect) zoneless world which was much closer to the standard modern MMOs have set.

Engine aside, Tanaka repeatedly expressed concerns regarding finding ways to make the game work with the memory limits posed by the Ps3 and this was 3-4 years ago, in the Ps3's prime.

FFXIV isn't even the only MMO unique to this situation as DC Universe Online (another cross PC/Ps3 MMO) has been running into a similar issue when it comes to moving the game forward and dealing with the Ps3's 8 year old outdated hardware limitations.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

This, too is my point. A lot of devs simply stick with "what works" and not really try to go above and beyond even though they have the potential, yet SE shown, even with limitations, they would at least try to. For example with XI, Monstrosity, Nyzul (Assault system), Fracture, Moblin Maze and such can be deemed "basic" systems on paper, yet no other MMO has really attempted to do some of what they did, yet despite "console limitations", they at least tried and succeeded but it had its own set of problems (e.g too great of an RNG on good rewards.)

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You will never get an argument out of me when it comes to saying that FFXI did some amazing and innovative things while working with the framework that the Ps2 gave them.

There were many pieces of content that were created in XI's prime that i have still yet to find an equal for in other games, many of which would actually do a world of good for the system that ARR has created.

ZNMs, Salvage (without the drop rates obviously), Dynamis, Limbus, Sky/Sea, BCNMs, ENMs, Moblin Maze Mongers, Chocobo Breeding / Digging, Nyzul, Assault, Besieged and Campaign were all great things that could be tweaked / made to work here with great effect.

However this doesn't mean that a lot of those systems couldn't have been better / greater if they didn't have to work within the limitations of the Ps2

if they drop ps3 support, they will be losing income. not everyone will/can buy a ps4 or high end gaming pc. i think thats what they look at ultimately. customer base, subscriptions. ofcourse the game can go high end pc only and be better than anything ever made etc etc, but again, customer base. im on ps3, havent had too many problems to speak of, if i do, i will upgrade to ps4, and if that becomes an issue, ill build a gamer. but as someone mentioned in an earlier post, if they advertise for a certain system, that system should be able to do everything that all the other systems can, otherwise just cut that system out.

Don't forget lower end PCs as well. They also designed the game to run on those. So your question should be are the PS3, PS4, and lower end PCs holding back the game.

i played ff in pc ps3 and now ps4 and i can tell you ps3 is the most likely to hinder the game.
PS4 is as good as PC performance wise and a little bit behind on the graphics compare to all maxed settings on pc