Scholar and Summoner shared attributes needs fixed!

Choices? More like Dilemma.

Scholar and Summoner dilemma: Which class do I gimp harder, and by how much?

On the other hand---

When pugilist gets, hypothetically, let's just say "black belt" for a job, their choices: NONE. Go for STR for monk, and STR for black belt.

Scholar and Summoner are getting gimped. Pugilist and Black Belt wont. This is intentional for you guys and you don't see a problem. Please.

"what other people think" is not an argument on it's own. Stop it. That's just ad populum.

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Originally Posted by FJerome

I can easily see the second monk job relying on DEX or the thaumaturge job that relying on PIE instead. Especially the second, killing yourself to cast Meteor is a fine series tradition.

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I can too, the point is just to illustrate that the system won't necesssarily gimp ALL jobs to the same degree. People are saying sch/smn deserve to have this dilemma because they come from one class, but eventually, what if there is a class with two jobs that use the same stat? By people's arguments around here, they would deserve to be gimped too, but they wouldn't be.

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Originally Posted by casker

Choices? More like Dilemma.

Scholar and Summoner dilemma: Which class do I gimp harder, and by how much?

On the other hand---

When pugilist gets, hypothetically, let's just say "black belt" for a job, their choices: NONE. Go for STR for monk, and STR for black belt.

Scholar and Summoner are getting gimped. Pugilist and Black Belt wont. This is intentional for you guys and you don't see a problem. Please.

"what other people think" is not an argument on it's own. Stop it. That's just ad populum.

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Saying it's dumb isn't an argument on it's own either. Also, you're assuming other jobs won't have the same problem, when they very well could. Not to mention it doesn't actually CAUSE any problems. I play everything, that includes Scholar and Summoner. I went with 23 MND/7 INT because it balanced the amount each job had compared to the other. I have no issue with any content on EITHER of them. I've done Coil on both of them just fine.

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Originally Posted by casker

When pugilist gets, hypothetically, let's just say "black belt" for a job, their choices: NONE. Go for STR for monk, and STR for black belt.

Scholar and Summoner are getting gimped. Pugilist and Black Belt wont. This is intentional for you guys and you don't see a problem. Please.

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Not necessarily. Let's say they add Dancer and give it hand to hand, basing it off PGL. Now say that DNC needs INT to for its skills because it's dealing debuffs. Now you have to decide to go STR or INT.

Or they add Thief and give it dagger. Say it needs STR. But since it uses dagger it's based off GLD and you've dumped all your points into VIT. Do you gimp your GLD to play THF?

At some point every class will have to deal with it. I suggest stockpiling Keeper's Hymns now.

This is the reason Keepers Hymm is in the game people. If you want to play both classes to max effectiveness, grab a few of those and there you go. The system was intended to work this way, and will likely happen to all other classes in the future (I recall hints at Dark Knight being a dps off Gladiator). There seems to be little reason to argue about this, come on.

Also, people saying 11 did the multi class system better stat wise, merit system says hi.

There was an argument there that you conveniently ignored just because I also called it dumb. Your post was strictly ad populum followed by a strawman.

I'm not assuming other jobs won't have the same problem. I only brought up a HYPOTHETICAL to show that, in the case of a class having two jobs that share a stat on the same class, they won't be gimped in the same way that people are saying SCH/SMN deserve to be gimped.

On the other hand, in order to say that SMN/SCH deserve to have to deal with this stupid stat system, you have to assume that EVERY SINGLE NEW JOB will have to deal with it too.

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Originally Posted by casker

I'm not assuming other jobs won't have the same problem. I only brought up a HYPOTHETICAL to show that, in the case of a class having two jobs that share a stat on the same class, they won't be gimped in the same way that people are saying SCH/SMN deserve to be gimped.

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It's all hypothetical. So is your concept that there may, at some point, be a class that won't have this issue, which I personally consider unlikely. I think Arcanist is a preview of what's to come and that every single class will have to deal with this. I think they'll go out of their way to make it happen.

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Originally Posted by Naberrie

Not necessarily. Let's say they add Dancer and give it hand to hand, basing it off PGL. Now say that DNC needs INT to for its skills because it's dealing debuffs. Now you have to decide to go STR or INT.

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I don't deny that other jobs will have to deal with it. That's not the point.

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Originally Posted by Naberrie

At some point every class will have to deal with it. I suggest stockpiling Keeper's Hymns now.

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This is where you're making the assumption that I already mentioned. You are assuming that EVERY class will have this problem. Not necessarily, and I already showed the black belt example.

The point is that, in the case of a job that shares the points, they will not be gimped in the same way that people say sch/smn deserve to be gimped, or that other hypothetical jobs will be gimped.

When you tell people to stockpile hymns, you are basically saying to grind a whoooooole lot. And with the frequency that people change jobs in this game, as they were designed to frequently change jobs, hymns are a poor solution that only exist to extend grind, and nobody can grind enough to keep pace with how often they switch jobs.

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Originally Posted by casker

There was an argument there that you conveniently ignored just because I also called it dumb. Your post was strictly ad populum followed by a strawman.

I'm not assuming other jobs won't have the same problem. I only brought up a HYPOTHETICAL to show that, in the case of a class having two jobs that share a stat on the same class, they won't be gimped in the same way that people are saying SCH/SMN deserve to be gimped.

On the other hand, in order to say that SMN/SCH deserve to have to deal with this stupid stat system, you have to assume that EVERY SINGLE NEW JOB will have to deal with it too.

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First, the only one saying "deserve" is you. I see where you feel it's being implied however, but that's not what's being said. We have no idea if they chose to do it this way because you get the second job "for free" or not. And yes, you are assuming other jobs won't have the same problem. Same as others could assume they will have the same problem. Because we don't know yet.

For all we know they decided to do this for classes that branch into different roles and only those classes. ie if Archer turns into Ranger down the line and also uses DEX. Or perhaps the resulting jobs are designed with the stat split in mind. Maybe we should talk about how Scholar, even if you throw all 30 points into MND, is still worse off MND wise than WHM. Or does this go back around to the job being designed around the possibility of having bad stat allocations?

So no, we don't have to assume every new job will have to "deal" with it.

EDIT: This also isn't the type of argument with a clear right or wrong, which is what you seem to be pushing. People have views and opinions. People may like it the way it is and that in itself is not wrong.

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Originally Posted by casker

Doesn't matter if it's intentional. It's dumb.

When pugilist gets another job that relies on STR, or when thaumaturge gets another job that relies on INT, they are going to have multiple NON-GIMPED jobs at their disposal, with just that one class leveled.

It will just be sch/smn (and other classes that have jobs with differing roles) who are screwed over, because the design is messed up.

All these arguments that say sch/smn deserve to be gimped because of them sharing a class will mean nothing then.

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How is the design screwed up. Arcanist was not meant to be a healer so the class stats are in line with SMN because SMN relies on INT. When you equip the Soul Stone on Aracinst MND is now boosted in line with WHM and int is lowered. So in a nut shell they stated SCH and SMN will not share stats meaning SCH will not be an INT based healer so they will not share the same endgame gear. Each Soul boost the Main stats for the appropriate Job. A job may have the same primary stats as the class but if you unequip a soul you will notice that the stats allocation across the board is different.

I thing SE should just remove the 1 point stat allocation entirely because as ilvl of gear increase these stats will mean very little and people are making a mountain over a mole hill regarding 30 stat points.

If SE is to keep the stat boost increase as you level then I do think the 10k seals to respec is too high. It should needs to be lowered in the instance were a player may be asked to be a SMN in some content and others SCH. 10K seals seems too restrictive, maybe 3k. Currently with Arcanist being the only class with 2 jobs the cost should be removed, but say a limit to respect per day until other jobs are added.