Just for argument's sake, what about a returning player from 1.0 that earned their level 50 before ARR dropped? The game now is clearly nothing like what I played then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jollyy5
Though I suppose it's still a flimsy excuse. I did research going in and knew what I'd be looking at once I unlocked all my abilities. Again. It's not hard to do a 5 minute Google search and find a quick run down of what's what when and where.
Dear Healers who don't DPS
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09-19-2017, 10:21 PMLevian
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09-19-2017, 10:38 PMMooglyI actually gave you 2 examples just below the quote you made of me...Quote:
Originally Posted by Taika
I will need time to read the wall of answers... But from a quick reading not much has changed :)Quote:
Lastelli : makes a clear difference between good and bad healers.... also throw a little lie for his cause : healer skills are no way only 1/3 of healer's spell kit :s In fact, it's more like half... duh, it's a healer's spell kit ! But better belittle those anti-DPS by saying they only use 1/3.... And the 50% active of the time... not even considering many beginners who haven't yet mastered the mp recup skills are idling for mp regen.... or because they tried something earlier in another dungeon, failed and are now scared.
Jolly : the "need to go back to the hall of novice", "is crippled", "is lazy/stubborn", or any other little caustic comments. Belittling people won't help... especially when a lot of people making these kind of comments are probably worse players than me.... And you don't do that sort of comments if you're not thinking yourself better than your contradictor.
I guess in the end it's all about how much each and every one of us is involved in the game, or approach it.
Though you guys may say pure healers aren't good players because of all the reason mentionned, and I do understand those, it still has little relevance to me.
Is it because of the very low expectation I have from DF groups ?
Or is it because I'm naturally super laid back when playing that game ?
Or maybe because IRL, I'm used to much more complicated social issues (at work) ?
Anyway, I'm quite happy of the general tone of the discussion because even though we definitely do not agree, we're not jumping at each others throat.
I eases my mind knowing the ffxiv community is still quite far from the kind of annoying (and ridiculous) elitism you find in wow.
But I'm just warning you from certain behaviour in DF that could ultimately lead to that "wow" atmosphere :
- belittling/criticizing of other people based on skill
- constant push to emulate the elite (always casting healer, dps stance tanking, voke/shirk double tanking...)
Though it is of course preferable to have all players be good to excellent, remember not everybody is as involved as us : there are casual players out there, yea !
So in the end, just try not behaving like how mentionned just above, or try correcting people having that kind of behaviour when you meet one, especially when the person asking obvioulsy lacks the skill level they ask for....
Keep going like that, and in the end you will eventually have people asking for gear/ilvl check in DF, or any kind of idiotic elitist bs...
I was so glad leaving wow and its crazed epeen centered community, I really don't want ffxiv's to start becoming one...
I'll finish with a story that happened this week-end, and that illustrate very well the kind of player I do not want that elitism to create :
So running that lvl 63 underwater castle as ast : get a 70 pld tank quite geared.
Damage on him was ok... except he was trying to tank the whole thing in sword oath. As expected, each pack was joyful, with the dps and myself running around, kiting mobs and all.
At one point we ask the pld to at least pull in shield oath to build initial aggro, then just switch back to sword oath and that would work.
Answer from the elitist : "are we speed running this or not ?"
(Nobody actually did ask for a speedrun, but well...)
I answered : "but you're losing aggro !"
Answer from tank : "oh come on I just lost aggro a couple time, stop ***"
(No pal, you lost aggro on every single pack...)
To which he added : "anyway don't worry, you're getting blacklisted after that"
...
I just told him : "so are you..."
So here we have the result of that constant push for elite gameplay : people that want to emulate the elite, think they are doing very good (when they obviously aren't), and start belittling others.
That tank might have thought he was doing good, since he was using advanced gameplay techniques, but we actually carried him through his numerous mistakes... the mobs hit really hard on dps and healers in those dungeons... Hopefully I managed to keep everyone alive, except one RDM death (after which we asked him to switch stance), and DPS was more than decent so the monsters were dying fast. But boy so much healing I barely had a second to dps... In the end, if that tank would have done the stance switching as asked, the dungeon would have run even faster with me DPSing... -
09-19-2017, 10:48 PMTaikaCan you give your examples as direct quotes instead of your own rephrasing (?) that's taken out of its context? Of posts that are "belittling" healer players who aren't healers who don't DPS at all without any reason?Quote:
Originally Posted by Moogly
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09-19-2017, 11:19 PMJollyy5Please refer to my earlier posts where I made it very clear that I only want everyone in the group to carry their weight and contribute for a smooth run.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moogly
And about that tank in your story, that was a jerk who thought they knew what they are doing, which was an inconvenience for the entire group. -
09-19-2017, 11:20 PMCynfaelThat's more specifically an issue with a particular player or party and is better suited to a discussion as to why elitism or just general toxicity is unhealthy for the game; it doesn't have much of anything to do with able, experienced healers actively choosing not to DPS appropriately.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moogly
Of course it's your prerogative to discuss elitism etc. if you like, but I personally don't see the value it brings to a gameplay discussion. The tank example you just gave is a fairly extreme one, not a situation that all or even most healers are likely to face on a regular basis.
When it comes to posts in this thread, there are very few that beat up all healers who do not DPS (including those who are inexperienced). We actually have many posts that explicitly advocate leniency towards players who are learning the role and/or scenario. It's usually rather obvious when this is the case, and some constructive communication can truly help.
That being said, I do not feel that it is elitist or otherwise inappropriate to call a spade a spade: any player, regardless of role, who knows better and chooses only to output the absolute minimum effort is making a selfish choice to be lazy. I don't believe in escalating these situations by harassing the offending players, but I certainly wouldn't choose to play with them again. -
09-19-2017, 11:21 PMMoogly
it was right between the post quoted and my last post.
This why I started my post with#624, #626, #627...Quote:
See, in just three answers, you pretty much have proof of what I'm saying
And even you keep going, as if you were in a "superior sphere" :
ok [pure healers] are not doing 20%, lets say 17% (and they lol...) #631
Pal... if that healer wouldve dps to reach 50%, made a mistake and the group wiped, it wouldve been not 20%, not 17%, but 0% for everybody... All mobs HP reset and going for a second ride...
Those kind of little attacks, if you were on the receiving side, how would you take it ?
Now do you understand ?
It might not look like it to you, but this is definitely belittling coming from a feeling of superiority.
And you could say, come on that's only a little teasing...
No. Words have different strength and underlying meaning when they're written rather than spoken. Especially on the net. Be aware of that. -
09-19-2017, 11:27 PMTaikaAre you seriously now accusing me of belittling myself? You understand the healer I was "laughing at" there was me, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Moogly
Edit: I repeat:
This is why we have the quote feature here on the forums. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Taika
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09-19-2017, 11:52 PMJollyy5To me it looks like you are missing the whole point of what we are trying to drive through, that being us expecting a healer who has absolutely nothing else to do than DPS, to DPS instead of standing there doing NOTHING. as in: Deal some damage when no one needs healing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moogly
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09-20-2017, 01:19 AMKabooaAlright. That's fair. If it's a matter of perceived activity, there's no arguing with that, though at the end of the day, I still don't think this warrants a close to 70 page thread now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tridus
I tend to look at things in a checklist, not on buttons pressed, mainly because just pressing buttons doesn't mean a whole lot. So these legendary 0 derp sub-optimal healers tend to rate as:
Healer: Heals.
DPS: Basic Derps
Tank: Threat
Moving into the more optimal play, it looks like
Healers: Heals + Derps
Derps: Derps + Cooldowns
Tanks: Threat + Cooldowns
So while the Healers who just heal might be sitting on the GCD, they're no different to me than the DPS who just do their basic rotation, or the tank who just hold hate. Sure, lower uptime. Objectively a worse measurement, but still just doing their basic, one thing like the other two. That's why it seems like a disproportionate amount of hate. On one hand, it makes sense when looked through regarding plain ole uptime, but the on other, they're fulfilling their basic task, just like a basic Derps rotation or a tank who does their basic combos and holds hate.
They are, as far as I'm concerned, in the same submarine, but it's the Healer that's getting an undue amount of ire. -
09-20-2017, 01:19 AMMooglyAnd as expected you keep ignoring all the arguments put in front of you by voluntarily or not, putting all non DPSing healer in the same bag.... while I desperatly try to explain to you guys that everybody has its own reason for not DPSing... And that stubborn attitude of not wanting to understand that, well, some people just aren't as good as you are...Quote:
Originally Posted by Jollyy5
We did say and repeat earlier, a healer idling does not mean that he is watching netflix 100%, trying to get carried or get free tomestones...
You're putting them in the same bag as new players unsure of themselves, cautious players... sometimes only healing will take all the concentration from those people.
After I told you so many times, and you're still not willing to accept any of this, how can I not think that you're being selfish in the end...? That the performance you're asking so much for, is in fact so that in the end you're the one who benefits from it ?
Then what about teamwork you'd ask ?
If you ask for performance, savage raid grade performance, make a premade, a static, a PF... I am totally fine and even ask for it.
But keep going full elitism in general, and you'll end up with a community as toxic as wow's.
I've seen that game evolve from quite friendly to horrible, and it was all because everyone tought of themselve as pro gamers when certain addons began to become popular : recount, elitist jerk, gearlevel...
I mean, did you know that the reason why FFXIV doesn't have a parser and most certainly never will, is because of a single (but sounding) harassement incident ? (koike incident)
You guys keep stepping in the grey area with the quoted caustic comments you are making...
Taika : I gave you the post numbers, the quoting thing is kind of a hassle to do... don't worry, all three posts are on page 63. As for the 20-17% thing, you're not the one that started it : #628
As the postings continue, any reader would feel that you're pulling down even more that fictious 20% efficient healer Jolly was making fun of... especially if they only read what you wrote and do not follow the link...
Cynfael : I consider asking for healers to dps systematically already being kind of elitist. I know, dps as healer is super easy, you should always be casting, mana is cheap, etc...
But some people aren't as good or involved... The latter being the hardest thing for you guys to accept I guess... casuals...
But I really tought I made it pretty clear that I am against any kind of elitism when it is out of context, e.g in DF.