Zepla: Endwalker is the Worst FFXIV Expansion I have played

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

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But we have examples of optional grinds in the game that exist but don’t need to be interacted with and yes because I’m so sure people are sick of me discussing it I’m gonna mention field content again

The first that immediately pops into my head is the emblazoned (10/10/10), you are put at no disadvantage if you choose to rush dalriada and then leave Bozja (lost actions cover what the bonus valours give in a variety of different ways) but if you do choose to go for it you are rewarded with bonuses, the same applies to elemental armour+2, the 7 magecite and the haste armour from DRS

It’s really not hard to introduce a grind that puts you at no disadvantage to ignore but gives people stuff to do if they want to do it, hell 90% of Bozja most people don’t even interact with, I bet most people here won’t know why dust storms are important. There is so much depth to them that you can go back and interact with that you don’t have to if you don’t want to

Maybe the lack of content in Heavensward combined with how much people praise it, probably comes down to the social experience. Wondrous Tails was a social experience (not anymore). Relic grind light farming was a social experience (not anymore). FATE farming to level jobs or get relics was a social experience (people barely know how to setup PFs for bicolor farms now and it's easier to solo fates now compared to certain HW fates). Everyone would hang out at Idyllshire to show off their mounts (can't anymore so Radz is just afk land now).

We do sort of still party for unreals instead of WT but we would party for a lot more than 1 per week in Heavensward. This social experience continued into Stormblood, with Eureka especially and being able to mount and chat at Rhalgr's Reach. But Endwalker has allowed so many things to just be done solo or without much of a social experience.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

So, question. From how people are talking about Eureka/Bozja, you make it sound like you've completed everything there is to do there. So all the relic weapons/armors for all jobs, all the items/mounts (included that awesome Fran bike!! so jealous)/etc (silly achievements aside if there are any). Is that true?

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All the mounts, most of the items, not all relics (really just 1 or 2). Got maxed on 10/10 of the bozja stats except one of them (which is the healing). The grind for that is kinda boring but I might continue it eventually, and I might get the last item or two from Eureka that I need.

Achievements aren't fun to grind in this game. I have the ones that I want (such as the experience point item from Bozja) even though it was only useful for a moment before the pre-order item was available.

Point is, it wouldn't take long to get what's remaining for me that SE reasonably expects people to get and not having done those few remaining things doesn't mean we shouldn't have another field area.

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

I agree that they are chasing too hard after new players at the expense of the veterans.

But here is the thing, the veterans help the new players AND if they are disenfranchised enough, the bad vibes will rub off on the new players and they may quit.

I have this horrible feeling that the 14 / 16 dev issues cost us all of the veteran content. I am praying that all of the tech work spent on 16 will be brought over to 14. We will see, but with more DLCs for 16, I don’t think those devs will be back until 8.0.

Hopefully we will still be around when they come back… hopefully…

8.0 ETA - January 2027

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Also in a simliar vein, happy veterans singing a game's praises bring more new players. Unhappy vets feeling like the game isn't worth their time probaby will repel more new players than the current design will attract.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Whether or not a new player can catch up depends on:

How much time they have available to play
What content they feel they must catch up on

Outside of the MSQ, content is optional. There is no need to "catch up". There is only the desire to experience the content and maybe get a certain reward. There is no penalty if you choose not to do the content.

The key is the time available to play. Those with more hours to play can experience more of the older side content than those with fewer hours to play. MMORPGS used to push to find ways to keep those with more time to play occupied. In turn it cost them the players with less time to play who felt like they had to be logged in 40+ hours a week just to stay current with no time left to do the other things they wanted to do.

Now developers are pulling back and adding in fewer (if any) meaningful grinds because they don't want the players with fewer hours to play feeling left out. That's leaving those with more hours to play with less to do. They could go play other games being created by other developers to fill that additional time but as we can see in these forums, that's not a satisfactory answer for those players.

It creates a no win situation for developers. One side is going to be left unhappy if they design around the other side. Trying to design around both sides is effectively designing for the more time side unless the grindy content has negligible rewards, but then the negligible rewards won't be sufficient to keep the more time players engaged with the content. Too many players expect their Skinner box to be full of new treats all the time.

Take into consideration that game studios and publishers are businesses out to make a profit (or at the very least make enough to pay their employees and cover other expenses), it shouldn't be difficult to understand why they've chosen to move design toward the players with less time. It's easier to keep those players happy than the players with more time who keep demanding more.

I'm not trying to argue good/bad or right/wrong here. It's the reality of gaming in the corporate business environment.

It's why gamers need to be better consumers. If players want the industry to change, then they need to stop putting their money in places where it goes against their personal interests in gaming. Make certain you're getting enjoyment out of your time and money spent, not frustration.

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Again, though, field content is entirely optional content that will always be there, they can always go back to it. The only thing they would be missing out on is when the content is fresh and new on-patch, and by the time new players get around to it (if they aren't in current expac) not only will they have that much more to do, but the QoL and any adjustments will already be there.

It hurts visually no one, there is no FOMO.

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Originally Posted by CNitsah

On the problem of people rushing the content on day one and complaining after that there is nothing to do, I think it's a false problem. Those people were there in ShB, yet most of those agree that without being perfect, ShB did a far better job at giving the said content longevity. Once again, a lot of the complaints are about this patch cycle doing a far worst job at making long term content than the previous extensions. The same devs literally did a better job at that in the past, and that's why people complain.

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Yes, I agree. The people who rushed to do content on day 1 and then complained there was no content have always made such complaints, but they have not seemed to manage a long-term grind in Endwalker the way they did with the Bozja stat grinds. We could argue the hunt mount, perhaps, but that was in the other expansions as well. We could argue the FATE mount, which previous expansions didn't have, but it's just so boring to farm. And the Island Sanctuary grinds lack the social experience.

Rather than SE's focus being on new players, I think it is just on two things.

1. Returning players, whose average player behaviour is to return to the game for a major patch, play few a few days, then slowly fizzle out and stop logging in, regardless of the longevity of the content.
2. Second life players, who engage in roleplaying, housing, music or glamour.

It is temporarily on new players if you count them revamping the MSQ and MSQ dungeons.

But as everyone is trying to say, there are players who play every day, all year round, who don't engage in second life content such as roleplaying, who get bored when the content is catered to the average "returning player" who quickly moves onto another game that released DLC.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

I prefer the Endwalker content that we've been getting, it's better and more plentiful than in Shadowbringers, but it has less arbitrary grinding, which is definitely a win-win.
Especially when there's such a backlog of content that new players can basically never catch up in side content, having the new side content no require you to spend hours a day grinding to cap this or grind out completions of this fate over and over is a net positive. Those things in MMOs just existed to artificially pad out the life of content, not necesarily make it better.
I'd rather have a patch that gives short, good content that lets me go back to older content like old extremes, savages, or even try out ultimates, than have new patches where if I miss grinding fates for that week I am not entirely behind everyone else and can't catch back up.

But apparently that's the minority, most people around the forums would rather have the game force them into a 4 hour a day grind for specific fates or CEs in a special zone to keep up with the rest of the players than be able to make their own fun by playing stuff they enjoy in the game.

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There has never been any question of forcing players since the existence of Final Fantasy 14, if you don't like grind or free filler content, don't set foot there,
And you are free to go there later, after all, there's no rush, and everything is achievable even several years after with a nerf."

There is absolutely no PvE grind content in 6.0-6.5. In an MMORPG, there should be something for everyone, and if they add grind content, there's no obligation for you to participate.

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Originally Posted by remiff

There is absolutely no PvE grind content in 6.0-6.5.

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I wouldn't say "no PvE grind".

• Extreme trial mounts.
• Raid progs (savage and criterion).
• FATE farm mount.
• S/A rank grind mount.
• Deep dungeon mounts.

But most of this is standard stuff and I think people either want more of them, or for them to be more fun or social to do.

Also, a lot of it is done through raiding whereas in the past more of the grinds were able to be done without an organized group and that's part of the issue as well.

I wish the game did more to cater to roleplayers. Actual roleplayers, mind you, not 'venue goers'.

Back in the days of ARR there were a lot of roleplayers eager to immerse themselves in FFXIV and take on the roles of bandits, adventurers and various other character concepts that piqued their curiosity.

The game has historically done very little to appeal to them. Commonly requested NPC outfits for Garlean soldiers and Ala Mhigan Resistance fighters were ignored or deflected. Same goes for more variety in terms of character customisation options - particularly for male characters.

There's some who remain but most roleplayers (myself included) have sought out other MMO's to scratch that itch to get something a bit deeper than 'YOU ARE THE CHOSEN ONE' or 'teehee do u wanna come to my venue and /beesknees lol xD'.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

I wouldn't say "no PvE grind".

• Extreme trial mounts.
• Raid progs (savage and criterion).
• FATE farm mount.
• S/A rank grind mount.
• Deep dungeon mounts.

But most of this is standard stuff and I think people either want more of them, or for them to be more fun or social to do.

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Yes, but you obviously understood that I'm talking about instance-type exploration content and specially made for an extension like eureka/bozja , extreme grind, hunting, etc,... it's on each extension.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

I wouldn't say "no PvE grind".

• Extreme trial mounts.
• Raid progs (savage and criterion).
• FATE farm mount.
• S/A rank grind mount.
• Deep dungeon mounts.

But most of this is standard stuff and I think people either want more of them, or for them to be more fun or social to do.

Also, a lot of it is done through raiding whereas in the past more of the grinds were able to be done without an organized group and that's part of the issue as well.

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I think this, at the very least, shows that everyone that is upset at things, a lot of which is justified, they can't agree on what they're upset about. Some people want more 'midcore' content, whatever their definition of that is. Some want field content, but only very specific field content. Some simply want more opportunities to be social with others, whatever that might look like. Some want more challenging content in general. The casuals like me don't want to sub forever to have a house.

Also, as for the older content not really being content, or some having simply finished everything there is to do, mmos simply cannot keep up with the hardest of hardcore players. It's simply not possible. Unless they throw in a crazy grind just for the grind, or something like pvp which can be played repeatedly just for the fun of it, there's going to be a disconnect. Honestly, that's why I love coming back to ffxiv every few months for a month or so, that way I'll never run out of stuff to do, and why I encourage others to do the same. For some reason though, a lot of people look at mmos as if it's a game they have to play constantly, and I've never seen them as such.