How would an optional, official parser be toxic?

You design a game around DPS checks in raids yet deny your community a tool that shows how they perform.


I could wipe 30 times on a boss not realizing myself that I do 25% less damage than some one with the same job and similar gear.
My group has no idea either why we are not meeting the DPS check either aside from 'we need more damage'.
The game itself doesn't provide me a basic tool to see how much damage I do in a raiding environment.

If people do not know that they aren't performing well they won't improve either.

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Originally Posted by Sneakaboo

You design a game around DPS checks in raids yet deny your community a tool that shows how they perform.


I could wipe 30 times on a boss not realizing myself that I do 25% less damage than some one with the same job and similar gear.
My group has no idea either why we are not meeting the DPS check either aside from 'we need more damage'.
The game itself doesn't provide me a basic tool to see how much damage I do in a raiding environment.

If people do not know that they aren't performing well they won't improve either.

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This is basically what it boils down to. And using a tool and informing someone they're performing sub par is "toxic".

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Originally Posted by Penthea

So am I to take this as you are also advocating for an official handholding rotation helper too?

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I used a rotation helper addon when I put top TOP 10 WORLD (not server, datacenter, WORLD) parses in WoW. Sure the community might have laughed at me, but in the end it allowed me to devote half the effort to managing a rotating and maximizing opportunities and uptime. It also made me you know a better player overall.

So yes. I have NO issue with rotation helpers, just like I have no issue with parsing addons.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

I'm just going to give up on this thread. No one wants to face the fact that parsers are tools that can fuel multiple things, including toxicity, because they're being wilfully narrow minded and only thinking of how it can benefit themselves.

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This is HILARIOUSLY ironic coming from you. I gotta share this with reddit. They'll get a kick out of this.

Yeah "we're" narrow minded. That's hilarious.

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

I'm not sure I'd say either sides points got countered. Personal Parses seemed to get a decent enough reception at the start of the thread, it was people who wanted to see other people numbers who where most against them.

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Personal parsers will not solve the problem. It still doesn't hold people accountable and will cause people to ask for proof of parses for invites, which is a hassle.

The anti parser crowd incorrectly thinks that parsers will create more toxicity. They do not. They will UNDOUBTEDLY be used for toxic things; but so can chat, PF, housing, MB, and any other in game system. If parser opponents only want to cherry pick their arguments it makes them look like uninformed and hypocritical lemmings.

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Originally Posted by tymora

Maybe a personal parser that only looks at your own damage output and compare it to the overall range for your job.
E.g. For XX raid, min is 3000, max is 6000, median is 5000. Assign a rating of A, B, C...etc based on output.

Only viewable by youself.

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The problem with this is scalability. That type of thing would be an absolute nightmare to develop and maintain as standards change between patches, expansions, etc. You want a solution that is simple and scalable.

For getting, said in game benchmark to reach, it is clearly not silly. The pinatas we get for each Xtrem primals and savage content are workd to fit a "minimal" DPS to reach. The value SE think it is needed (with your job) to kill the boss. I think (hope) they did consider that this pinatas is not moving, no mechanics etc. but it means they also have an idea of the damage value they could show for the "real" boss.
It would be better than nothing !

Here, some, me included, says "with parser you can see if you are bad or good" with, for example seeing fflogs or even other player you find during different run. But at first, before knowing "i am bad because i am at only 70th percentile" this will say "i am bad because i dont even have the damages that is needed for this content". Yes i spoke about testing it before, but i dislike what we have now because NO mechanics. some people get perfectly their job if they have only this to do... and then loose a great part of their DPS when they are in real fight. other people dont do it perfectly in this 3 min boring smash... but wont loose a lot while doing mechanics.



For personnal parse? We will see some wonderfull PF where you have to prove after 2-3 wipe your damages shown by your personnal, resulting being kicked if you are too low (same as if we have a "full" parser) or if you dont give the screenshot. Also people will continue to use their actual parsers. so, for me it is a little better for PS4 players but nothing more.
Because i speak here for PS4 players (i am not even one ^^") i could admit it is better than nothing yes

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

Honestly, I wouldn't join any party that says that in the first place. I'm very strict about what groups I join, don't want to be in one that unleashes the wrath of Bahamut on a party because of one mistake, etc. Tend to make my own parties as a result.

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People keep saying stuff like this. I have almost never seen it, even when i joined an o1s group on my i280 monk and did greyest percentile dps. Even when I play a job I've never played before in extreme content. Even when all the dps are below the tanks or heaven forbid the healers too. If people are consistently seeing these types of groups they REALLY need to look inwards and stop griefing the other players in this game. Like I thought i was going to far playing jobs I've never played at 70 before and didn't have gear for, but if every party you join you're worried someone is going to berate you for your dps or your performance in general, please just do us all a favor and learn how to play the game and also realize that the issue is not with other people it is with you.

Not calling you out, just thought your comment about people yelling about dps/mistakes was relevant.

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Originally Posted by greytonberry

People keep saying stuff like this. I have almost never seen it, even when i joined an o1s group on my i280 monk and did greyest percentile dps. Even when I play a job I've never played before in extreme content. Even when all the dps are below the tanks or heaven forbid the healers too. If people are consistently seeing these types of groups they REALLY need to look inwards and stop griefing the other players in this game. Like I thought i was going to far playing jobs I've never played at 70 before and didn't have gear for, but if every party you join you're worried someone is going to berate you for your dps or your performance in general, please just do us all a favor and learn how to play the game and also realize that the issue is not with other people it is with you.

Not calling you out, just thought your comment about people yelling about dps/mistakes was relevant.

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I actually see the PFs up quite a bit on the Chaos datacentre. I've even seen plenty "1 death = kick" "1 wipe = disband" type parties on the Chaos datacentre. Even if I was the best at the game, I still wouldn't join those types of parties. Yes, I want to farm, but I want a good atmosphere, not absolute perfection. I don't mind the odd mistake in my parties, but there's many groups on Chaos that demand absolute perfection. I've even seen it in learning parties on Chaos!

And yes, for the most part I'm talking about the PF descriptions (so I don't even go into them). That's the beauty of PF... all the groups demanding perfection up there, whereas I want something more relaxed? Make my own group! But the experiences in learning parties, yeah, I've seen it in my own parties (not from me though)

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

I actually see the PFs up quite a bit on the Chaos datacentre. I've even seen plenty "1 death = kick" "1 wipe = disband" type parties on the Chaos datacentre. Even if I was the best at the game, I still wouldn't join those types of parties. Yes, I want to farm, but I want a good atmosphere, not absolute perfection. I don't mind the odd mistake in my parties, but there's many groups on Chaos that demand absolute perfection. I've even seen it in learning parties on Chaos!

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Those are the kinds of parties that you just ignore like the LootMaster ones in farm parties. I made a Niddhog EX farm party yesterday because I really wanted the scale for the DRG spear, had nothing but nice and pleasant people all around.

I got my scale, 3 people got their lanners, two people got their weapons, and another person got a scale.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

I actually see the PFs up quite a bit on the Chaos datacentre. I've even seen plenty "1 death = kick" "1 wipe = disband" type parties on the Chaos datacentre. Even if I was the best at the game, I still wouldn't join those types of parties. Yes, I want to farm, but I want a good atmosphere, not absolute perfection. I don't mind the odd mistake in my parties, but there's many groups on Chaos that demand absolute perfection. I've even seen it in learning parties on Chaos!

And yes, for the most part I'm talking about the PF descriptions (so I don't even go into them). That's the beauty of PF... all the groups demanding perfection up there, whereas I want something more relaxed? Make my own group! But the experiences in learning parties, yeah, I've seen it in my own parties (not from me though)

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I don't see such learning parties in PF and i'm on Chaos datacenter too.
I see learning parties with special practice goals who demand that you know the upleading mechanics but that should be normal.

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Originally Posted by Legion88

I don't see such learning parties in PF and i'm on Chaos datacenter too.
I see learning parties with special practice goals who demand that you know the upleading mechanics but that should be normal.

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Oh no, I have seen learning parties (even run them), where despite saying "Guide not required" in the PF description (making it clear that it's blind), people raging hard at others failing a mechanic on the fight. That's rare I'll admit, but I've seen it happen.

And yes, I know it's just [censored]holes that do it, but I've still seen it happen. And yet, I'm still pro-parser.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

Oh no, I have seen learning parties (even run them), where despite saying "Guide not required" in the PF description (making it clear that it's blind), people raging hard at others failing a mechanic on the fight. That's rare I'll admit, but I've seen it happen.

And yes, I know it's just [censored]holes that do it, but I've still seen it happen. And yet, I'm still pro-parser.

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Perhaps i'm just lucky with this.