The problem with the 'support role' is that it exists and doesn't exist simultaneously.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lambdafish
Jobs like Bard, Astrologian and Paladin are intended to be 'support-role' jobs that focus on supplementing their main role with party buffs. However, these support abilities often lower the caster's dps without giving back the dps they lost (Ballad, Paeon, Clemency, Stoneskin), are limited in usage due to requiring large amounts of resources (Clemency, Foe Requiem), or are tied to cooldowns that stop the players from interacting with their support buffs for more than a few seconds at a time (Draw, Divine Veil, The Warden's Paean). It's also worth mentioning that despite the game being so heavily weighted toward an aggressive playstyle, there aren't many support abilities available that actively increase a party member's dps output; most support skills in the game are defense-oriented.
The end result is jobs that are clearly intended to be more support-oriented than their counterparts from the same role, but due to the game's extreme focus on DPS generation and the variety of limitations places on support abilities, they can't freely support the party as a 'support hybrid' from previous Final Fantasy games would. And so we have what are essentially support jobs, in a game where support jobs don't exist.
This is different from Healers where all aspects of their toolkit are equally weighted. In the game's current design there will never be a reason for a Healer to not dps. It's an interesting contrast to 'support-oriented jobs' that have many aspects of their toolkit that they often have no reason to use at all
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03-04-2017, 03:06 AMConnor
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03-04-2017, 03:24 AMRopeDrinkNo, it's not a workplace, but pray tell me what is fun about dungeons going slower than they could be, or choosing to stand idle when healthbars are full? These are excuses for not contributing when you have nothing to do - and, let's face it, it's 'easy' to damage as a healer, hence people ask for it. The only concern I have as a DPS-Happy WHM is Cleric Stance GCD. Tanks typically have a trove of defensive CD's for desperate moments, and DPS (if they're any good), won't be headbutting every single avoidable damage spell.Quote:
The feedback I have received before is that its not playing to 'optimal efficiency', but this is not a workplace it is where people come to enjoy themselves, not be coerced into doing a role that they didnt choose- dps as healer. Most dps did not choose to heal, and have a monopoly of different playstyles to choose from, on the other hand healers are being made to dps, to sort of make up for dps defiency, Then I see a question asking for harder content, just stop healer dps and the content will be harder to clear. Healers that want to dps go dps, leave others to heal or tank if thats what they enjoy.
It's not a matter of DPS deficiency entirely, it's laziness. -
03-04-2017, 03:39 AMFeyonaCant agree its laziness in a game, because a game is intended to be enjoyable for all, its more about choice or lack of, some take the game more serious than others same as any other game you play, as this is a social game you will have all kinds of people on it with a very varied view to how they want to enjoy themselves, so I think people should at least have a different role to play than dps if they wish. I dont agree with the rush through content argument, because the game isnt intended to be rushed through althou I do admit it takes longer if I dont dps. All things are intended to be a challeng as you progress, how about a challenge of not relying on healer dps? You can still dps out of cleric so the staning about bit isnt necessary . Theres arguments that dps are also lazy if healers need to dps. So its a matter of perspectveQuote:
Originally Posted by RopeDrink
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03-04-2017, 03:47 AMRopeDrink
Sure, some people enjoy having 20 useful abilities and using only 10 of them - that's up to the individual, not questioning that. However, this whole 'social game' spiel is one of the many excuses used along the way. I'd turn that point on its head and say that as a 'group' game, one person choosing the slow method makes things less fun for everyone else. Are we all that greedy that we only concern ourselves with, well, ourselves? In short, there is no reason not to use your full kit. You don't have to, that is your prerogative, but I wouldn't expect people to remain quiet when they see someone playing at half effectiveness for no reason at all, especially if it's at the expense of everyone else. Does it warrant flames or nastiness? Maybe not - but criticism? Certainly. If a chosen content type could be drastically sped up, there's no reason not to take that opportunity, and in no way would the alternative be more fun for anyone.
Don't get me wrong, I could throw every elitist jerk into a blender and watch them get carved up without shedding a tear - such attitudes should be reserved for ones own guild and the members expectations from it, not vented at everyone and anyone just trying to play the game - but that doesn't mean I'll be happy as Joe Soap seeing Joe Bloggs picking his nose on the sidelines doing sweet sod all when everyone is healthy and we could be chewing through things quicker with them just pressing a handful of extra buttons. What irks me about this whole thing is that DPS'ing as a Healer isn't even difficult. I'd understand if there was some huge complexities tied to the concept, but there isn't. Again, there's just no reason not to unless you're paranoid, lazy, or find some weird enjoyment out of being half-effective. -
03-04-2017, 04:18 AMFeyonaYour probaby right it is just the choice bit though as some dont actually like dpsing not through laziness but I do see posts that people hate dps thats why they wanted to heal, and theres maybe many more dps that hate healing. In high content Im hardly even allowed to heal in content as sch although I would love to be able to. That doesnt mean Im too lazy to dps though because I do, I just dont enjoy it. The thing about group content though Ill stand on my head and dps if it makes people happy, and no my enjoyment is not more important than theirs, and you could turn that around, like who is the selfish one, the one doing the forcing or the one having to play how others want.Quote:
Originally Posted by RopeDrink
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03-04-2017, 04:39 AMRopeDrink
Well again, I don't begrudge the choice. I love every inch of my WHM and DPS every chance I get. I love nothing more than seeing huge Stone III crits, mass-stunning a room with Holy explosions and shredding the amsses with Aero III & Assize. It fills the gameplay between 'healthy tank' and 'time to heal that DPS who eats every single enemy AoE' moment, and also speeds the content up. I can do this AND keep people healthy, and so I do. People simply have to remember that just because they can DPS as a Healer doesn't mean Healing is no longer the primary function. You are keeping people alive, it is what you are there for. However, the DPS you can provide is a hugely welcome bonus that EVERYONE can appreciate. Imagine doing levelling roulette 50 times in a row and not contributing damage, it'd drive you insane more-so as a 'just heal' Healer, further cementing DPS as the bonus you provide -- but provided, it should be.
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03-04-2017, 05:04 AMKitfoxIf you don't enjoy the gameplay, why don't you play another game then? I mean this question seriously, since all well written arguments keep getting ignored.Quote:
Originally Posted by Feyona
If you don't like the game, play another game, please. Nobody's forcing you to stay here. This game obviously doesn't offer the playstyle you prefer.
Everyone has the freedom to play how they want. Everyone also has the freedom to not play with the people they don't want to play with. You don't get to decide if a group should allow a healer to only heal, just as I don't get to decide that everyone should play optimally. We have this free will that I very much appreaciate. It's pointless to argue about it. -
03-04-2017, 05:42 AMThe_NPC
all I ever see outa the whole "Healers should DPS!" thing is it depends, with Cleric Stance, if cross-classed, any of the 3 Healer's "Can" DPS if they want to or have time but on the topic of they "Should" thats up to debate & a matter of perspective. Personally my point-of-veiw is: if u'r new to healing, an't cofortable stance dancing or don't have it/ don't have time then fine ignore u'r DPS skills (afraid counts too) will u'r DPS'n help in some way, Probably... do I see it as a "DO IT OR DIE" when there is time, nope
I have 3 simple rules for all classes:
1) Watch u'r arrgo, all of u
2) Dodge all telegraphed AoE's that are dodgable
3) Do u'r best to keep each other alive, Tank 1st were aplicable & this is a Mostly healer rule -
03-04-2017, 05:51 AMCreinCrein
classes are not divided by the T/H/D label but are united by one common goal: KILL THE THING AS FAST AD YOU CAN. Healers do this by keeping everyone alive while supporting them foremost, but they also provide a substantial amount of deeps. Not using all the tools provided by the game to achieve the goal intentionally hurts not only you, but everyone else. There is not a single fight in this game that requires more than half my actions to be heals. If you have a bad experience it's just that. But don't let it discourage you from doing 100%. Speaking of this savage raid tier in particular, I don't think I have below 95℅ cleric uptime on any of the fights, my co healer 75℅. We both often always run grey percentage HPS while hitting the 99th percentile deeps simply because healing is not required; what are you going to do with all that free time if not dps? Even while main healing I don't find it remotely hard to break 90-95th, there's no reason to heal if there's no justification to
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03-04-2017, 05:54 AMFeyonawho is ignoring your argument? Think its the other way round. The answer is always the same, dps or gtfo, well sorry if your disapointed but I will not be leaving the game. And will probably still ask for a role choice. Minority though my views may be in here there may be many that would prefer one. So it simply isnt just me asking for something, no one else wants as you would like to think. Your way of playing is the coms way not everyone elses, it was never part of the design.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitfox