Dedicated Thread for Patch 2.55 Story Discussion/Spoilers

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Nope. There's a bigger continuity "error" than even Nanamo's undeath: what caused Nidhogg to awaken, and how did Estinien acquire his blood? These are both events that happen during the Dragoon Job quests as a direct result of your involvement with Estinien, and yet he references them even if you haven't leveled DRG, and, more importantly, they still occur during the DRG quests even if you do them after 2.55, as if Ishgard still hasn't been attacked.

There are little errors all over the place in addition to the bigger ones, but after a point the devs have to accept that some people will end up dealing with quests out of order.

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All class, job, gathering, and crafting class quests happen in the 2.0 cycle. Nanamo's death is the 2.55 cycle. They set it up so all those happen BEFORE everything from 2.1 on. Meaning it's not a continuity error, it's that the story assumes that the players were done with all that long ago.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

All class, job, gathering, and crafting class quests happen in the 2.0 cycle. Nanamo's death is the 2.55 cycle. They set it up so all those happen BEFORE everything from 2.1 on. Meaning it's not a continuity error, it's that the story assumes that the players were done with all that long ago.

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You really don't have to tell me that. Tell that to the guy I was quoting.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Nope. There's a bigger continuity "error" than even Nanamo's undeath: what caused Nidhogg to awaken, and how did Estinien acquire his blood? These are both events that happen during the Dragoon Job quests as a direct result of your involvement with Estinien, and yet he references them even if you haven't leveled DRG, and, more importantly, they still occur during the DRG quests even if you do them after 2.55, as if Ishgard still hasn't been attacked.

There are little errors all over the place in addition to the bigger ones, but after a point the devs have to accept that some people will end up dealing with quests out of order.

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I don't feel that's of the same magnitude as the leader of Ul'dah jumping from alive to dead to alive depending on the order in which you do the quests.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

All class, job, gathering, and crafting class quests happen in the 2.0 cycle. Nanamo's death is the 2.55 cycle. They set it up so all those happen BEFORE everything from 2.1 on. Meaning it's not a continuity error, it's that the story assumes that the players were done with all that long ago.

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This is giving the player too much credit, and not something SE seems to typically do. Your typical player joining the game today and playing through the various storylines doesn't see patch 2.0, 2.1, 2.2, etc. They aren't coming to the forums or checking out the chronological order content was released in. To them this is just one big game with a big story, and seemingly some major continuity errors depending on the order they consume the content in.

There are plenty of ways to fix this, and the developers seem like the type not to sweep this sort of thing under the rug. That they haven't bothered to fix it can mean several things, (one of those being that Nanamo isn't really dead). Combined with some of the statements given by a few of the NPCs in the game, I tend to believe that's a strong possibility. Just an opinion, though!

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Originally Posted by Gyson

There are plenty of ways to fix this, and the developers seem like the type not to sweep this sort of thing under the rug. That they haven't bothered to fix it can mean several things, (one of those being that Nanamo isn't really dead).

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The other being that it would, as Fernehalwes (head of Lore and Localization) has said before, simply consume too many resources to be a worthwhile investment. You underestimate exactly how much besides one CUL quest needs to be altered after 2.55, and simply changing the biggest "error" would only make the smaller "errors" more obvious.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

The other being that it would, as Fernehalwes (head of Lore and Localization) has said before, simply consume too many resources to be a worthwhile investment. You underestimate exactly how much besides one CUL quest needs to be altered after 2.55, and simply changing the biggest "error" would only make the smaller "errors" more obvious.

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Yes, that is completely possible and falls into the category of "can mean several things". Just to be clear, I never implied it wasn't a possibility, I merely suggested there are several possibilities and admitted from the start that I may be giving the developers too much credit. When writers make a decision to kill off a character, I like to believe that they review all the cases where said NPC makes an appearance in other storylines, debate how best to deal with that, and then act on that decision. In Nanamo's case she pops up in a few stories (not just one CUL quest), and yet it's quite possible the reaction of the writers was akin to "oh well, doesn't matter/don't care". If that is the case then I feel that's disappointing and sloppy writing, and the team can take that as feedback. Or, it could be that Nanamo is really still alive (a few of the NPCs closest to her seem to believe so), rendering this observation/complaint as moot.

Again, those are all just my opinions. After all, this is the story discussion thread, not the "agree Nanamo is dead or GTFO" thread. :p

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Originally Posted by Gyson

If that is the case then I feel that's disappointing and sloppy writing, and the team can take that as feedback.

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I hope they are listening. I really do. Don't mistake my cynical pragmatism to mean I don't want to believe otherwise.

Anyway, glad to see more people are choosing to live in denial/making theories about the possibility of Nanamo being alive.
She was the only person in the realm who looked so much like an adorable mix between chibi queen & cupcake, so Her loss will make Eorzea a far gloomier place...
I'm hoping maybe if her death greatly displeases a large enough part of the community, the devs miiiiiiiiiight take it into account.


http://i.imgur.com/YSckyyJ.gif

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Originally Posted by VirusChris

Kingdom Hearts reference?

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Sort of... Save the Queen is an iconic Final Fantasy weapon. Because of that, it was included in Kingdom Hearts. I'm now awaiting seeing it in FFXIV, hopefully, related to Nanamo, despite her being a sultana rather than a queen.

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Save_the_Queen

Since she's the current subject of discussion, I'd like to point out that there's one disturbing aspect of Nanamo's death that seems to have gone pretty much unnoticed (please correct me if that's untrue).
This is a game rated 16+. Even in games with more ''mature content'' that FFXIV, there is still one taboo in the entire videogame industry: directly showing the death of children, or sometimes even creatures resembling children.
So, yes, I know Lallafels are not necessarily infants, I play one myself, and I've had to kill quite a few Garlean/Pirate/etc ones throughout the story, but those were kill or be killed situations, not to mention most of these Lallafel models had a moustache or other things indicating older age.
Nanamo's actual age on the other hand is unknown, especially since she has to act mature because of her role, but a. she looks like a child ( she even has pigtails) b. she sometimes displays the emotions of one (bursting out in tears, running into Raubahns arms) c. she still sleeps with her plush toys for gods' sake!
Contrary to what most people assume about the female gender, I'm not ridiculously sensitive or even fond of children, but Nanamo's death scene is as disturbing as the image of a little girl choking to death actually is. To make matters worse, it was a largely unnecessary act of violence, as she was about to resign from her position anyway.
I would very much like to have an official response to this.

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Originally Posted by Gyson

Yes, that is completely possible and falls into the category of "can mean several things". Just to be clear, I never implied it wasn't a possibility, I merely suggested there are several possibilities and admitted from the start that I may be giving the developers too much credit. When writers make a decision to kill off a character, I like to believe that they review all the cases where said NPC makes an appearance in other storylines, debate how best to deal with that, and then act on that decision. In Nanamo's case she pops up in a few stories (not just one CUL quest), and yet it's quite possible the reaction of the writers was akin to "oh well, doesn't matter/don't care". If that is the case then I feel that's disappointing and sloppy writing, and the team can take that as feedback. Or, it could be that Nanamo is really still alive (a few of the NPCs closest to her seem to believe so), rendering this observation/complaint as moot.

Again, those are all just my opinions. After all, this is the story discussion thread, not the "agree Nanamo is dead or GTFO" thread. :p

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Have a situation where you must adapt any content characters appear in when their are major alterations to that character creates a situation where storytelling becomes extremely restrictive and the problem compounds as the game gets longer. Let use Estinien as an example. Lets say something happens to him that changes him or kills him in say 3.2. That would create a situation where the developers would have to go back and change pretty much the entire DRG Job storyline from scratch. That's a huge amount of work. Its not feasible without a serious impact on new content. For example for such a thing would you be happy to give up say the entire Dark Knight storyline? Imagine if it happened in 4.0 or 5.0. They would have 2 to 3 expansions worth of storyline that they would have to rewrite.

Such a thing like this requires either Main Scenario and Non main Scenario NPCs never interact in any way and there is no crossover between the two or any crossover that does happen effectively makes such NPCs immune to major changes happening to them. The first situation leads to a sense of disconnect in the world as the Main Scenario doesn't feel relevant to events in the side stories and vice versa. The second leads to an undermining of any tension in the story because players would now that certain characters have plot armor.

This isn't about the writers not caring about story. In fact the opposite is true. They aren't willing to let a problem keep them from creating tension in a story and making that story connected and engaging.

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Originally Posted by Naamah

Since she's the current subject of discussion, I'd like to point out that there's one disturbing aspect of Nanamo's death that seems to have gone pretty much unnoticed (please correct me if that's untrue).
This is a game rated 16+. Even in games with more ''mature content'' that FFXIV, there is still one taboo in the entire videogame industry: directly showing the death of children, or sometimes even creatures resembling children.
So, yes, I know Lallafels are not necessarily infants, I play one myself, and I've had to kill quite a few Garlean/Pirate/etc ones throughout the story, but those were kill or be killed situations, not to mention most of these Lallafel models had a moustache or other things indicating older age.
Nanamo's actual age on the other hand is unknown, especially since she has to act mature because of her role, but a. she looks like a child ( she even has pigtails) b. she sometimes displays the emotions of one (bursting out in tears, running into Raubahns arms) c. she still sleeps with her plush toys for gods' sake!
Contrary to what most people assume about the female gender, I'm not ridiculously sensitive or even fond of children, but Nanamo's death scene is as disturbing as the image of a little girl choking to death actually is. To make matters worse, it was a largely unnecessary act of violence, as she was about to resign from her position anyway.
I would very much like to have an official response to this.

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Nanamo is in her 20s. Many Lalafell act in a childlike manner.

However from a story position Nanamo's assassination was necessary. Firstly she wasn't just resigning. Her action would have seriously undermined the power of the Monetarists. Secondly, this whole thing was a power play not just to remove her but to remove the Warrior of Light as well.

Its supposed to be shocking and horrifying because its an evil act and honestly an actuate depiction of anyone dying from choking to death on poison would be disturbing.