Dark Knight Megathread

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

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I'm thinking something like open with DoT > Edge > New Spell > Edge > New spell > Edge > New spell > Delirium > Bloodspillerx3 > Edge > New Spell > Blood Weapon > Main combo > Edge > New Spell > Main combo > DoT > Dark Arts for new spell x3

That's a lot of things so it's still busy but it's not white noise, the bulk of the damage (which even with a new spell should still be Bloodspiller since you don't want the new spell so potent it's worth running out of Darkside for) still fits in the 15s party burst window, and still has room for your other oGCD's because remember, spells are not effected by Skill Speed. That's why my proposed solution had it as a spell, it's more forgiving for latency. You do still want to consume as much mana as you can to line up with party burst buffs but once the burst phase is over you'd still find consistent use in your spell since it's independent of any self buffs for damage, meaning consistent damage output regardless of what your raid is doing. You'd keep MP for TBN and be rewarded with a free Edge to get more Darkside time which lets you use the new spell as a reward for a well timed TBN. If my quick napkin math is right, you would get 2 uses of the new spell for every 3 uses of Edge if the values were as I suggested.

Also, refresh my memory, the 58 quest is the moogles, isn't it? I'd flavor it that in order to not be consumed by the abyss that Fray talks about, you have to relinquish some of your "dark side" in the form of a potent attack. Being consumed by your dark side is a bad thing, overcapping on your darkside is a bad thing, etc. which seems like something they can teach. Also a decent fit for the level 50 reward as well, but obviously that would replace Living Dead as the 50 capstone which wouldn't be a good idea, so I definitely agree.

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Originally Posted by Ryaduera

Oh! This makes sense now, yeah. It would fix the resource issue in that case and make the burst window feel more like a flow rather than a bucket we dump it all in.

For me, however, this wouldn't fix the issue with only having 4 globals to use in an entire encounter. PLD/WAR rotation uses 6 on globals, GNB gets 7, and DRK gets 4. 3 of which are spammed while the other is ALSO "use bloodspiller when you have blood gauge" until a burst window opens. It doesn't feel very good. The 1-2-3 combo works for GNB because each rotation gives 1 cartridge which can be fired immediately. It takes 3 rotations for DRK to even consider using bloodspiller. This is why I'd like something on global that consumes Darkside time.

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saddly i agree on that, the lack of GCD it's a problem apart that even the JP has been trying to adress it their way, last idea i saw is reworking Delirium to update the main combo in to a new combo of reused skills aka scourge, old delirium and power slash. Thats why i would love to have a more spread and interesting MP usage so the downtime is not based only on soul eater spam and the ocasional bloodspiller wich is the most awful design ever made and have actually real management of both resources.

We need more GCD that's totally true and i belive Shadowbringer should have been the new GCD that combo with bloodspiller or proc from an MP skill or whatever, the thing is we need more GCD visual and mechanical diversity and looks like DRK is going to be 2 years more eating dirt in the corner.

IMO if they want to keep it simple and align it with EW job design, they could simply change Darkside to a trait like Enochian, and make Shadowbringer a GCD that procs from it like Xenoglossy.

I think that they really nailed it with Reaper. If they'd used that design on DRK, it would be a fantastic tank to play.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I think that they really nailed it with Reaper. If they'd used that design on DRK, it would be a fantastic tank to play.

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A bit too complex for a tank, I think...but yes, RPR does look very interesting and I feel like maybe SE is trying to shuffle some old DRK fans away from nu-DRK and into RPR with the similar edgy aesthetic and a very active kit, which even has some survivability built in.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I think that they really nailed it with Reaper. If they'd used that design on DRK, it would be a fantastic tank to play.

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I worry that Reaper will end up more convolution and less actual complexity -- in much the same vein as DRG's 11 weaponskills' internal balance and (lack of) modularity only truly amount to at most three possible decisions (ST-melee, ST-ranged, or AoE), and only in the GCD before starting into either path -- but the visual flow of it all does appear exactly what DRK deserved.

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Originally Posted by Ignimortis

A bit too complex for a tank, I think...but yes, RPR does look very interesting and I feel like maybe SE is trying to shuffle some old DRK fans away from nu-DRK and into RPR with the similar edgy aesthetic and a very active kit, which even has some survivability built in.

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complex?
Do your first set of globals.
Then do the next unlocked set of globals.
Spend acquired resources from your 2nd gauge, to have a powerful burst of a few globals.

Doesn't sound much more complex than GNB or PLD, to me.

It doesn't really have to be very elaborate or technically complex. It just needs to be engaging. Reaper is an entirely resource driven job with a burst window that that is resource gated, not time gated. The burst window itself transforms your actions into new ones, with a 1.5s GCD for players who enjoy a bit of button mashing. It's even got the most interesting gap closer.

Think about what it would be like if you had DRK designed that way. Build up blood gauge to enter Delirium every 60 seconds, complete with that shadowy-flame effect that players have been asking for since Heavensward. Transform your base combo into upgraded actions with a super short GCD. Maybe they hit multiple times and restore MP. Maybe your character's base movement speed is faster with it up. Every second Delirium window, Living Shadow splinters off of you and does whatever actions you did during the last Delirium window. Finish with something flashy, where you and your shadow(s) hit the target multiple times to end the window.

The whole point of resource driven jobs is to build up gauge to do something fun. That's what makes them more entertaining than your standard 44-step fixed rotation job. Nobody cares about how mathematically complex your spreadsheet-designed job is when they're busy mashing skills out at triple the APM.

There's also something joyful about having movement skills that you can just use when you feel like it. Imagine if DRK had something like a personal only Lost Impetus (complete with a shadowy speed boost) as our own Chi Torpedo. These sorts of abilities are great to use in fights. But perhaps more importantly, they're fun to use all the time. Do you think that you're going to see Reapers just walking around the map? Or are they going to be blinking all around the place?

I would have thought that the need for engaging and fun gameplay would be obvious to the game designers who actually play their own game™. But then again, these are the same people who designed Living Dead, so they're clearly not playing DRK.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I would have thought that the need for engaging and fun gameplay would be obvious to the game designers who actually play their own game™.

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I of course agree with this, but you've lost me on what's just so different about backloaded (readied-later or resource-based) vs. frontloaded (readied-immediately or purely CD-based) skills.

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It doesn't really have to be very elaborate or technically complex. It just needs to be engaging. Reaper is an entirely resource driven job with a burst window that that is resource gated, not time gated.

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I don't get what's supposed to be so satisfyingly different about the prior. Those resources are still ultimately generated... over time -- exactly as are Oath Gauge, Beast Gauge, Blood Gauge, Kenki, Aspected Mana, Heat, ShB Lilies, and so on -- on a job that still has no reason to outright prefer Skill Speed.

As such, it merely is one small factor reducing how inferiorly Skill Speed stacks up against Crit and DHit while punishing the job for any encounter-based downtime and reducing initial burst (and thus, on average, skewing job performance negatively as encounter lengths decrease). Apart from running out of oGCDs to press a bit later into the opener than most, it's only going to feel as different from frontloaded resources as will its fit to any given fight -- i.e., only as noticeable as are its negatives.

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The burst window itself transforms your actions into new ones, with a 1.5s GCD for players who enjoy a bit of button mashing.

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So would any no-bloat reiteration of Hypercharge, but it's far from satisfying to many a MCH even despite its adding massive cooldown reduction to its core oGCDs per window-unlocked action cast. So does Nostrand already, and it's still less exciting than even just HW Geirskogul.

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The whole point of resource driven jobs is to build up gauge to do something fun. That's what makes them more entertaining than your standard 44-step fixed rotation job.

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We've had that, though, and all it's done is extend the number of GCDs considered as part of the "opener" to the later use of those resources before then repeating itself in the exact same fashion as any purely CD-based job, except in that its CDs have no ability to shift earlier relative to our GCDs over periods of forced downtime.


Don't get me wrong; I like the delayed phase that resource-based burst skills provide -- so that we aren't so lopsidedly peak or trough -- but they're hardly unique in that regard (as just having a higher opening burst apm and a "secondary" burst phase every other or every third "full" burst still provides the very same playflow), nor is the effect that significant. The best that can be said of it is the complexity involved in banking those resources for a CD-driven burst phase, but even that, short of wanting particular SkS tiers in order to milk out some new alignment, is as easily provided by having a secondary charge on certain offensive abilities that we'd want to skillfully guide into our CD-based damage modifiers.


Tl;dr: If we're going to have a resource gauge, by all means, let's make better use of said resources, but there's unique or outright better about skills or playflow gated by resources generated. More than needing a better flow of resources, per se, we just need more to do.

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Imagine if DRK had something like a personal only Lost Impetus (complete with a shadowy speed boost) as our own Chi Torpedo.

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I'd love this.

Strangely I feel like dark knight’s kit can function a lot more like gunbreaker’s with a little tweak. Currently gnb can hold two cartridges from their main combo and they have to spend some of it to not over cap outside of burst windows. Drk right can max out darkside with two edge/floods and we have a insane amount of overcap on the timer. And we don’t ever want to use edge outside of burst windows because of their massive potency and our lack luster mana generation outside of blood weapon. So if we increase drk’s mp generation a noticeable amount while lowering the potency of edge considerably, we won’t feel pressured to stuff all of it in a tight window. All we need now is a seperate skill that cost mp but don’t extend darkside with a higher potency.

Say we also throw the blood gauge out the window and have bloodspiller and quietus use up darkside time, 15 seconds for bloodspiller and 10 seconds for quietus. They will be on a separate recast times, 10 seconds for bloodspiller and 5 seconds for quietus. Delirium can remain the same where the cost is negated but it also lowers the recast time to our regular gcds. Living shadow will also cost darkside equal to its duration but darkside won’t go down for said duration so it can serve as a big burst window.

I’ve seen this being said by others but shadowbringer should have been our lv. 80 capstone along with living shadow. Living shadow is basically automaton queen but there is no way for us to end it early for down time and there's around 2-3 seconds left after esteem’s final attack which would have been perfect for a synced double shadowbringer.