The great streamer Asmongold is joining FFXIV

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

There are most definitely a lot of consequences that have not been realized yet..

I think a lot of people think Y'shtola is "handwaving" away her deaths. But she is most definitely building up to "pay the piper" soon.

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I really like Y'shtola but

sadly I don't think the plot point of her shortening her life by using her own aether to "see" is ever gonna be brought up again because I feel that they'd have done that by now, instead, she got a power upgrade in ShB
Plus, with her being somewhat of the Dissidia mascot character now, they're not gonna kill her

G'raha, no,

the Exarch surviving like that completely cheapens the emotional impact they've built up, too, imo
An addition to that, turning the wise and knowledgeable Exarch into a fangirl like that just feels wrong, should've either kept the Exarch personality or just NOT fuse the soul of the First one's with the Source's soul and let Source G'raha be himself - and invite him to the Scions regardless!

I'm enjoying how this thread topic transformed into lore plot-holes and characters cheating death when they probably should be dead.

Speaking of Lore and public figures on the internet, i wonder whatever happened to "Lore"? He was pretty active in the MMOrpg gaming spotlight via Gamebreaker TV until eventually Blizzard hired him- and then he disappeared around the time when Blizzard stopped doing those livestreams.

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Originally Posted by Pandie_Goodies

First bit, let me tell you straight up that yes you have faced enemies similar to the lightwardens, It\\'s called Primals and their ability to temper? Lightwardens are in a way more corrupted primals that have a focus on an element that just mindlessly kill everything.

Secondly I\\'m very curious of your two plot holes. Cause So far I didn\\'t see them and even if you considered them plot holes I\\'m going to disagree with you outright. Your "Opinion" on wanting more dark things to happen is goofy and it will in my "Opinion" Fail the plot and make the story too predictable.

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Story Spoilers...

I wasn’t talking about Lightwardens first of all, i was talking about the Unsundered Ascians. Secondly, the two plot holes are: They explain throughout the story of ShB that the farther Graha is from the tower, the weaker he becomes. They mention it numerous times, but not only do they mention it, but they also literally show us it in Kholusia where he almost passes out from helping us take out a few sineaters and protect a dwarf and has to go take a rest. However, all of a sudden near the end of the game, he’s able to summon 7 WoL from across the shards, despite 1.Only able to accomplish this feat once, which was when he was under the full power of the crystal tower and it literally took him 4-5 tries to even barely get it right, and 2. He was the farthest from the tower he’s ever been, much much farther than Kholusia where he had passed out, yet he can somehow do this while the farthest away from the tower and could multiply by 7. The second one is the fact that the only reason Emet kept Graha alive is because he wanted his knowledge on the Crystal Tower. Yet....we know he can literally just kill him and go into his body and take the knowledge that way. As for your comment about dark things making the story too predictable....what? How is it any more predictable than nothing ever happening to the protagonists and none of them dying and always being okay.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Story Spoilers...

I wasn’t talking about Lightwardens first of all, i was talking about the Unsundered Ascians. Secondly, the two plot holes are: They explain throughout the story of ShB that the farther Graha is from the tower, the weaker he becomes. They mention it numerous times, but not only do they mention it, but they also literally show us it in Kholusia where he almost passes out from helping us take out a few sineaters and protect a dwarf and has to go take a rest. However, all of a sudden near the end of the game, he’s able to summon 7 WoL from across the shards, despite 1.Only able to accomplish this feat once, which was when he was under the full power of the crystal tower and it literally took him 4-5 tries to even barely get it right, and 2. He was the farthest from the tower he’s ever been, much much farther than Kholusia where he had passed out, yet he can somehow do this while the farthest away from the tower and could multiply by 7. The second one is the fact that the only reason Emet kept Graha alive is because he wanted his knowledge on the Crystal Tower. Yet....we know he can literally just kill him and go into his body and take the knowledge that way. As for your comment about dark things making the story too predictable....what? How is it any more predictable than nothing ever happening to the protagonists and none of them dying and always being okay.

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Story spoilers below.

I think it was apparent that G'raha's power to summon people from other worlds was a Hail Mary on his part. Not to mention, I wouldn't necessarily call this a plothole as even Emet voiced his incredulity.
"...I'm surprised you can still stand."
He still had some fight left in him and with the quantity of people he was trying to summon, that can easily be explained away with the fact that this was the moment where he wasn't trying to summon someone specific.
"Heroes from beyond the rift, hear my call" <-- He was casting a wide net and just needed some volunteers to answer back. That and this also an interesting way for the devs to canonize the Duty Finder at the climax of the story because it was usually an implication that almost everything the WoL did, they did solo.

As for him getting weaker the further away he was from the Crystal Tower, it's important to note that G'raha pretty much just told half-truths up to that point. He kept a lot of secrets and his excuse to rest might've been an outright lie just to spend more time with the WoL since he was reconciling the idea of never seeing them again and was ready to die for their sake.

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Originally Posted by ScarboroughFairy

Story spoilers below.

I think it was apparent that G'raha's power to summon people from other worlds was a Hail Mary on his part. Not to mention, I wouldn't necessarily call this a plothole as even Emet voiced his incredulity.
"...I'm surprised you can still stand."
He still had some fight left in him and with the quantity of people he was trying to summon, that can easily be explained away with the fact that this was the moment where he wasn't trying to summon someone specific.
"Heroes from beyond the rift, hear my call" <-- He was casting a wide net and just needed some volunteers to answer back. That and this also an interesting way for the devs to canonize the Duty Finder at the climax of the story because it was usually an implication that almost everything the WoL did, they did solo.

As for him getting weaker the further away he was from the Crystal Tower, it's important to note that G'raha pretty much just told half-truths up to that point. He kept a lot of secrets and his excuse to rest might've been an outright lie just to spend more time with the WoL since he was reconciling the idea of never seeing them again and was ready to die for their sake.

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It’s a lot of maybe’s and couldve’s though. It’s something that essentially contradicts the entire plot that they set up throughout the entire expansion. I mean, it isn’t even just the rest thing.

It’s the reason he didn’t travel with us to the places with lightwardens besides holminster because it was closer. All the other places he has to stay behind. It’s the fact that they address it numerous times and go so far as to show us the results of it, that just makes it completely unbelievable and contradicts the story. Let’s not forget he was also shot lmao. Point still stands though, even summoning the scions tired him out and those were merely side effects of the main thing he was trying to do, but you mean to tell me he was able to accomplish a feat he had never done before whilst being seriously injured and who knows how far away from the tower he was(literally the opposite direction and under hundreds of miles underwater lmao). If it was something that resulted in him using his life energies to do it then that’d make more sense, but then it’d result in him dying and apparently we can’t have that. My Hades point still stands as well as a major plot hole.

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Originally Posted by Neoyoshi

I'm enjoying how this thread topic transformed into lore plot-holes and characters cheating death when they probably should be dead.

Speaking of Lore and public figures on the internet, i wonder whatever happened to "Lore"? He was pretty active in the MMOrpg gaming spotlight via Gamebreaker TV until eventually Blizzard hired him- and then he disappeared around the time when Blizzard stopped doing those livestreams.

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He's still there and serves as the content creator liaison now instead of interacting with the general community.

I had never liked him that much myself. When he replaced Ciderhelm and Aliena (sp?) at Tankspot, he had come across as a shill for the devs trying to get the Tankspot community behind unpopular game changes even when he had previously stated contrary opinions. Turned out he was trying to suck up to the devs so he could get a job with Blizzard (it worked).

I could appreciate the way he frequently communicated as a CM with players once he had the job but I could never view him as anything other than a dev mouthpiece. It doesn't surprise me that's he's disappeared from view since the devs have stopped caring about the community.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

It’s a lot of maybe’s and couldve’s though. It’s something that essentially contradicts the entire plot that they set up throughout the entire expansion. I mean, it isn’t even just the rest thing.

It’s the reason he didn’t travel with us to the places with lightwardens besides holminster because it was closer. All the other places he has to stay behind. It’s the fact that they address it numerous times and go so far as to show us the results of it, that just makes it completely unbelievable and contradicts the story. Let’s not forget he was also shot lmao. Point still stands though, even summoning the scions tired him out and those were merely side effects of the main thing he was trying to do, but you mean to tell me he was able to accomplish a feat he had never done before whilst being seriously injured and who knows how far away from the tower he was(literally the opposite direction and under hundreds of miles underwater lmao). If it was something that resulted in him using his life energies to do it then that’d make more sense, but then it’d result in him dying and apparently we can’t have that. My Hades point still stands as well as a major plot hole.

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Seriously injured doesn't mean useless. If you can still hold your weapon and stand, you can still fight and, not deviate too far from the point, that's basic combat triage. That and "you mean to tell me he accomplished a feat he had never done before" is ignoring the fact that he's had practice with porting the other Scions to the First before the WoL. With that in mind and with him casting such a wide net to pull other warriors from across the rift into the fight, it's not that much of a stretch. If Alisaie can pull an LB3 out of her ass for something as simple as buying the WoL time, this isn't even remotely impossible and especially given how desperate the situation was. Again, this was a Hail Mary and, who knows, maybe you'll get your wish of direct, explicit confirmation in the next expansion.

As for Emet killing G'raha, the point in that scene was to use him as a bargaining chip.
"Don't worry, your friend is still alive but whether he remains so depends on you."
I will give you the fact that Emet could've killed G'raha to divulge all his secrets, but there's nothing that says he wasn't going to kill him after he reached his ultimatum with the WoL and the Scions.

Genuine question--is character death necessary for a decent story? It's completely fine if you believe so.
Hot take: "No one's died yet" isn't as much of a critique as people think it is.

It's also not a question of if, but when. When you're not expecting someone to die, based on precedent, and then they just straight die anyway, it's waaaaay more impactful.

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Originally Posted by ScarboroughFairy

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It just sounds like a whole lot of headcanon to argue with the actual facts we’re given in game. Which is something this community likes to do a lot. As for your question, it depends on the kind of story.

Shadowbringers is a story where the stakes are the highest they’ve ever been in the entire game. Not even the crystal braves situation or Zenos comes close to it. We face two of our toughest foes in the entire game yet we’re somehow able to do so without anything happening to us or the main cast. It completely defeats the purpose of portraying and writing a story as high stakes, but not following through with anything. They constantly teased Yshtola’s death and nothing came of it. They constantly teased Graha’s death and nothing came of it. They set up specific lore points and then ignored them to keep a character alive. You can speculate on things to try to make it make sense in your mind, but it clashes with the actual information we’re given in game. Emet didn’t need a bargaining chip at that point. If he had figured out how to time travel from Graha, he’d have been out. That’s my entire point. That entire section of the game shouldn’t have even happened because in reality, he would’ve killed Graha and then yeeted out. They build up these lore threads and then don’t follow through with them in favor of keeping a character alive. That’s when it becomes a problem for me because then it starts being like, well then what’s the point of even speculating or theorizing the story. If they’re not even going to follow the rules they write themselves all because it’s in favor of keeping a character the community likes, alive. In the case of ShB, no deaths or consequences for us or the main cast negatively impacts the story. Many will disagree sure, because they’re the type that can’t get over Haurchefant after 6 years passing after his death lol. I get liking a character, i do, but that’s why adding a consequence to them or killing them can impact the story in a good way in a variety of ways. It’s unrealistic that any of the scions came out unscathed in what is the grittiest and highest stakes expansion yet. Someone else tried to say it was due to their knowledge and tools but no lol. It was due to immense amounts of plot armor. I personally dislike the way they’ve gone of there only being consequences and deaths for antagonists. It makes the story very one-sided and imo dull. Especially when the protagonists don’t even succeed through their own volition or power. They only do it through the power of plot armor and *friendship*.

Man this thread has taken some turns. Whining about a streamer playing the game to arguing about character death and ascian simpery. It's been a wild ride.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

It just sounds like a whole lot of headcanon to argue with the actual facts we’re given in game. Which is something this community likes to do a lot. As for your question, it depends on the kind of story.

Shadowbringers is a story where the stakes are the highest they’ve ever been in the entire game. Not even the crystal braves situation or Zenos comes close to it. We face two of our toughest foes in the entire game yet we’re somehow able to do so without anything happening to us or the main cast. It completely defeats the purpose of portraying and writing a story as high stakes, but not following through with anything. They constantly teased Yshtola’s death and nothing came of it. They constantly teased Graha’s death and nothing came of it. They set up specific lore points and then ignored them to keep a character alive. You can speculate on things to try to make it make sense in your mind, but it clashes with the actual information we’re given in game. Emet didn’t need a bargaining chip at that point. If he had figured out how to time travel from Graha, he’d have been out. That’s my entire point. That entire section of the game shouldn’t have even happened because in reality, he would’ve killed Graha and then yeeted out. They build up these lore threads and then don’t follow through with them in favor of keeping a character alive. That’s when it becomes a problem for me because then it starts being like, well then what’s the point of even speculating or theorizing the story. If they’re not even going to follow the rules they write themselves all because it’s in favor of keeping a character the community likes, alive. In the case of ShB, no deaths or consequences for us or the main cast negatively impacts the story. Many will disagree sure, because they’re the type that can’t get over Haurchefant after 6 years passing after his death lol. I get liking a character, i do, but that’s why adding a consequence to them or killing them can impact the story in a good way in a variety of ways. It’s unrealistic that any of the scions came out unscathed in what is the grittiest and highest stakes expansion yet. Someone else tried to say it was due to their knowledge and tools but no lol. It was due to immense amounts of plot armor. I personally dislike the way they’ve gone of there only being consequences and deaths for antagonists. It makes the story very one-sided and imo dull. Especially when the protagonists don’t even succeed through their own volition or power. They only do it through the power of plot armor and *friendship*.

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Sadly the fact is that the characters are marketable. So don't expect huge changes like death for them until they are done being selling points. Yshtola being the biggest problem. She is the mascot in japan so yeah. Not saying I agree with it.. but this is just the truth. Marketing.