Final Fantasy XIV and a Culture of Enabling

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

I've always thought that they should expand the Hall of the Novice for every role. I also wish they would have a tutorial of sorts before even entering the first city for one's class/job. Maybe a Hall of the Novice expansion could have a "Novice" version required before entering Satasha, then a test of sorts at the start of every expansion like "Hall of the Adept/Expert/Master" based on the level, all of which require completion before entering the first dungeon of the expansion. Obviously it shouldn't be anything too crazy, but some standard stuff that people should know after a certain point should be tested.

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Even if it achieved as much as getting through the message "don't be an ice mage/freelance SAM/floortank DRG/no dps healer", it'd go a long way. :`) I know there's a strong aversion to dps meters being incorporated into the game itself, but really they are by far and away the most effective method of conveying feedback on how well you're doing your job, particularly if coupled with logs to give an indication of what that means in context... it's a pity they can't find a way to punish toxic usage of such tools (such behaviours already being against the ToS), as opposed to taking a hard nope stance to them, while turning a blind eye to their usage provided you keep quiet about it. That may well be of use to players who have a self-improvement mentality already, but in terms of aiding other players improve, it's not of great use and there really isn't much of an objective basis to steer the chat.

While more in game means of teaching players would be good, who exactly are you trying to teach? This thread bounces around on who exactly it dictates the "problem" people are. Are we just talking about underperformers in general? people who are actively trying to play but just for one reason or another aren't doing too well? Depending on their reasons, such things could help them, obviously more tools to figuring things out won't hurt them.
However, if we're talking about the people who know better but simply chose to either play badly or bearly play at all, giving them more tools to learn will do nothing as they have no interest in learning in the first place.

On expanding hall of the novice, yes, as for making some kind of test before each expansion progression? No, SE showed their stance by adding the easy and very easy options to the solo trials, they want people to get through the MSQ, not be gated by it, these "tests" would have to fall somewhere in line with the solo trials and given their "difficulty" or lack thereof, they'd either be a waste of time or nerfed if they actually were challenging and too many people had trouble with them.

That said, I think all of this should be applied to EX, Savage and Ultimate. What I would do is expand hall of the Novice to cover all the basics as well as all the basic mechanics one would reasonably expect to run into and a general overview of roles and your job, nothing crazy but enough that the players understand "Infinite mana doesn't make an Ice BLM all powerful" AOE skills work best on many foes, ect. While this would have a test to get you to put it all into practice, none of this is required, it's just there for those who want it and something to point people at who want to learn.

Once you get to cap, to unlock current EX's you have to do hall of the Adept, requires Novice being done and this would be for each job and go more in dept about how to use them, ending in a test.

Finally hall of the Master for Savage, needs Adept done, this would just be a few fake "Savage" fights where you'd have to perform your job to a certien level while doing mechanics. Basically Memoria Misera normal, but hard and you'd have role related objectives, mechanics and having to output decently on your chosen job in order to clear them.
Master would be a little tricky given people would likely find out what's easier to clear on and just do that one to unlock Savage, they could either make it so you can only do Savage on role's/jobs you cleared Master on, or if they can't or didn't want to do that, just have it show on your search info what Master's you've done.

Ultimate I'd leave alone as Savage already serves as it's gate.

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Originally Posted by BlitzAceRush

On expanding hall of the novice, yes, as for making some kind of test before each expansion progression? No, SE showed their stance by adding the easy and very easy options to the solo trials, they want people to get through the MSQ, not be gated by it, these "tests" would have to fall somewhere in line with the solo trials and given their "difficulty" or lack thereof, they'd either be a waste of time or nerfed if they actually were challenging and too many people had trouble with them.

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I feel like the solo trials and this idea of an expansion test would be two different situations though. I don’t think it’s something meant to be incredibly difficult, just meant to serve as a refresher for newer/returning players to the game for each expansion. If it functions like that, then i don’t see any harm in it. If someone can’t pass it well...then at least that would give them the incentive to look up a guide for their job? Again, I don’t see it as being too terribly difficulty though.

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Originally Posted by Mykll

It was obviously a Tactical choice of theirs.

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damn, can't believe they're all COWARDS

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Even if it achieved as much as getting through the message "don't be an ice mage/freelance SAM/floortank DRG/no dps healer", it'd go a long way. :`) I know there's a strong aversion to dps meters being incorporated into the game itself, but really they are by far and away the most effective method of conveying feedback on how well you're doing your job, particularly if coupled with logs to give an indication of what that means in context... it's a pity they can't find a way to punish toxic usage of such tools (such behaviours already being against the ToS), as opposed to taking a hard nope stance to them, while turning a blind eye to their usage provided you keep quiet about it. That may well be of use to players who have a self-improvement mentality already, but in terms of aiding other players improve, it's not of great use and there really isn't much of an objective basis to steer the chat.

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I'm not against parsing as a concept. I think it's a great tool in the right hands. I just don't trust many people to handle it responsibly and respectfully. Coming from WoW, I have seen both sides of it, the good and the bad. I just don't want to deal with the potential headaches.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I feel like the solo trials and this idea of an expansion test would be two different situations though. I don’t think it’s something meant to be incredibly difficult, just meant to serve as a refresher for newer/returning players to the game for each expansion. If it functions like that, then i don’t see any harm in it. If someone can’t pass it well...then at least that would give them the incentive to look up a guide for their job? Again, I don’t see it as being too terribly difficulty though.

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I don't see an issue with it being in the game, I see an issue with it being a gate for the MSQ and regular content, that was why they added the easy and very easy modes to the solo trials, they aren't even trying to teach you anything, some were literally just "Hit this and don't stand in that" If they felt that needed to be toned down, they're not going to then put in a test everyone needs to pass in order to process.
Like I said giving people the tools is perfectly fine, but you can't force people to learn, even if you add in gates and tests, the truly lazy will just learn to do them or look up a step by step guide to do them and then go right back being lazy, people who want to learn will actively seek out ways to improve and people who don't will actively seek out ways to avoid it.

Some people have no interest in being good, they're not "leeches" they're not trying to just not play the game and get "carried" but they don't care beyond seeing the MSQ, maybe doing a few dungeons and Alliance raids, doing some normal trials and that's about it, they make up the bulk of the playbase, they're not out to make your life miserable by being bad or not being "good enough" but they're also not stepping into any content where skill matters. That's why roulettes offer rewards, they get other players to get content cleared.

High end content is exactly that, high end, in that you can make your own party and control who you play with and can set any standard you want, but for normal content SE likely will not and honestly should not have anything mandatory blocking progression, what the game needs is more steps for someone wanting to move from normal content into high end, I think the extra halls could help with that, gives people clear goals and instructions to help them improve and having the gates here means when you make a Savage PF you at least know the person had to go through a fair bit to even be able to join the party.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Cool picture

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The artwork in your sig looks great.

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Originally Posted by BlitzAceRush

While more in game means of teaching players would be good, who exactly are you trying to teach? This thread bounces around on who exactly it dictates the "problem" people are.

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There are a few groups, a main contention for people were lazy people but I would say the biggest offending party are actually the ones who don't know any better and get upset when you point it out whether maliciously or not.
The ignorant party.

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Originally Posted by BlitzAceRush

Are we just talking about underperformers in general? people who are actively trying to play but just for one reason or another aren't doing too well? Depending on their reasons, such things could help them, obviously more tools to figuring things out won't hurt them.
However, if we're talking about the people who know better but simply chose to either play badly or bearly play at all, giving them more tools to learn will do nothing as they have no interest in learning in the first place.

On expanding hall of the novice, yes, as for making some kind of test before each expansion progression? No, SE showed their stance by adding the easy and very easy options to the solo trials, they want people to get through the MSQ, not be gated by it, these "tests" would have to fall somewhere in line with the solo trials and given their "difficulty" or lack thereof, they'd either be a waste of time or nerfed if they actually were challenging and too many people had trouble with them.

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I disagree and I think the following test/quiz I'm about to describe should be mandatory because the only thing required to pass them is having pasted 5th grade and requires no technical skill and will in fact be even easier if not on the same level of difficulty as hall of novice right now.


I think we're thinking of two very different things there is class knowledge and then there is class mastery.
I'm personally not trying to directly force players to get better at their classes I'm trying to force them to understand the concept of what they're supposed to do.
Many people don't even think about when to use their AoE's simply because it wasn't a natural thought to them, they haven't developed the habit.

I can't speak for everyone but when I hear test/quiz I'm thinking the exact same thing we have in hall of novice except a simple 10 question test and some applied learning.
I'm not asking for everyone to be able to do their level 80 rotation perfectly or even their 1-2-3 rotation perfectly I'm asking you to learn what proper play is and if you don't feel like doing it despite knowing that's on you.

Some examples:

A instance that explains what AoE's are, their potency, how their damage works and when you should use them.
Because of past descriptions as the game has evolved and also simply due to misunderstanding some people believe the descriptions on AoEs is actually the potency ÷ by the # of factors not the potency * the # of factors.

The instance would then give you mobs that are immune to your AoE skill or your single target GCD skill respectively so that the player could learn in what situations they should be using what GCDs.

If they use the wrong GCD then the mobs would disappear and you have to start again, you can adjust difficulty by simply giving them a buff every time you do the wrong GCD and say the 3rd time they do the wrong GCD you start over.

This would reduce frustration for people generally curious about the information being offered and remove a time limit for the technically impaired.
You could also add another mechanic past that where the mobs start grouped and then spread out past the point of your AoE and then you have to single target, they eventually group up again and you have to go back to using AoE's but because you had to swap off one of them is going to die before the other and it becomes immune to AoE's again, then it teaches the player that even if you should AoE GCD you should also swap to single target GCDs when appropriate.

The above test and ones similar to it would be mandatory at the start of the game and any time a mechanic is changed you would need to retake the test/quiz before you can queue for any content.

I have a few other examples but the goal isn't to forcibly improve a players mastery over any said class but to increase their general knowledge so they can improve at a rate they're comfortable at and to make the general player aware of their strength's and weakness's and it wouldn't run contrary to them adding different difficulties to msq because the issue there was the player's mastery over their class and because msq content is single player you cannot be carried, this is simply a knowledge test not a skill test.

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Originally Posted by BlitzAceRush

Some people have no interest in being good, they're not "leeches" they're not trying to just not play the game and get "carried" but they don't care beyond seeing the MSQ, maybe doing a few dungeons and Alliance raids, doing some normal trials and that's about it, they make up the bulk of the playbase, they're not out to make your life miserable by being bad or not being "good enough" but they're also not stepping into any content where skill matters. That's why roulettes offer rewards, they get other players to get content cleared.

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Here’s my issue with this. I would 100% agree with you if this was a single player game. The fact of the matter is this: It’s a multiplayer game. You’re playing with other people. Your actions affect these other people. I understand with wanting to solely experience MSQ. But if they can take the time to play the game enough to get through 3-4 expansions, in my mind, then they can take 10-20 minutes to do this test we’re suggesting. All we’re asking is for them to learn to know basic mechanics whether it be using aoes or whatnot. I don’t think anyone’s asking them to be the most skillful players in the world.We’re just asking for them to put forth SOME effort since in the end this isn’t a single player game it’s multiplayer. Now yes SE did implement the very easy mode to instances and that’s fine. But i don’t think that gets in the way of them implementing a test to teach players mechanics or a built in one via msq. I just think SE is very disconnected from the playerbase so there’s a lot of issues they don’t even know about or realize.

As for what the game can (and should) do because I do feel that while I feel the complaints in this thread are massively overblown, the game does a terrible job of teaching players how to play and does very little to encourage improvement:

- I do think there should be a next step up from Hall of the Novice that does teach some basic things like when you should use AoE and DoTs, that you should add in some DPS if/when you can as a Healer, that as a tank you should try to control enemy facing/location and use your cooldowns, etc. Nothing too complex and, most important, no numbers. Just clear and simple instructions. Fold in here for every role that you are playing in a party and it's the responsibility of everyone in the group to pull their own weight
- I do think that the Hall of the Intermediate (or whatever it's called) should be made mandatory at a relatively early point in the game (Novice opens at 16? so maybe 40 for Intermediate). Heck, if you put it at level 40 you could even fold it's completion into both MSQ and your Class quests so you knock them all off at once
- I do think that job stones should become required equipment to enter dungeons after level 35. It's not really a topic of this thread but I've seen it mentioned elsewhere and it really is silly that it's not a thing already
- I do think that there should be a simplified grading system sort of like a report card at the end of specific MSQ dungeons and trials. It doesn't even have to be all of them to lessen the work for the devs if/when significant balancing changes are made in the future. No rewards or penalties and, as in Hall of the Intermediate, no numbers. Just a letter grade based on how much damage you did, how much damage you took, how much damage you healed, etc. Have the game itself make it very clear what the player is doing well at and what they are failing at. Now that we have Trusts in post 70 content, maybe fold this into the Trust system and encourage players who do poorly in certain areas to work on their weaknesses in a Trust. Heck, you could even have the Trust NPCs call out to the player to give pointers.