So, can we just ban damage meters already.

I'm pretty sure you can just report them for toxicity and be fine.

Damage meters are actually used for good things though, so banning them completely probably isn't the best. Like raiding groups who train together to be able to know who is doing well in their group. Unwarranted "advice" is technically toxicity, though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Melichoir

Simplest way? Tighter DPS checks and Enrages. Punish players in Normal content for having poor dps. While I wont say that this is always the case, Ive seen plenty of logs where players are in 450 gear doing 3-4k dps as a monk, RDM, BLM, etc. Mind you, with some of these classes, literally spamming one skill can net you higher damage. There is very little in the way of excuses for doing such suboptimal damage when you have this gear, and frankly the devs need to push normal content harder and force players to get better and understand their classes. It would honestly help a lot in many aspects of the game. Itd be tough on certain players, and possibly cause a few to quit, but many of the complaints we hear would end up resolved by allowing for more difficult and unique design in the game

---

I do not disagree, and would like to see normal content stress proper competence in role and actually doing mechanics instead of teaching players mechanics can be ignored if the healer can deal with it (while I don't disagree with alternative solutions to mechanics, pass the buck to the healer should not be the baseline).

However, the question then becomes this: how do we make it clear to poor players that it's their fault? How do we teach a bad tank that it wasn't the healer's fault they died, vice versa? How do we get a poor DPS to realize that they're the reason the party isn't getting past the enrage, instead of them projecting fault onto the rest of the party? Harder content stops poor players from coasting through, and I have hope that many people would realize a need to improve, but I also have fears there will be those who will never look at a wipe and say to themselves "I contributed to or caused that."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Melichoir

Simplest way? Tighter DPS checks and Enrages. Punish players in Normal content for having poor dps. While I wont say that this is always the case, Ive seen plenty of logs where players are in 450 gear doing 3-4k dps as a monk, RDM, BLM, etc. Mind you, with some of these classes, literally spamming one skill can net you higher damage. There is very little in the way of excuses for doing such suboptimal damage when you have this gear, and frankly the devs need to push normal content harder and force players to get better and understand their classes. It would honestly help a lot in many aspects of the game. Itd be tough on certain players, and possibly cause a few to quit, but many of the complaints we hear would end up resolved by allowing for more difficult and unique design in the game

---

If that’s going to cause people to quit like you said what’s the financial incentive for SE to do it? A lot of people might be complaining sure but it’s just that complaining they aren’t canceling their subs over it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Melichoir

Simplest way? Tighter DPS checks and Enrages. Punish players in Normal content for having poor dps.

---

I doubt this will happen because SE is in business of making money and punishing players at every turn will get them to quit... which is very bad for business. Just look at what happened to Wildstar, they tried that... didn't end well for them. Like it or not, this is supposed to be a very accessible theme park MMO, SE's own words.

Even if meters were allowed, I don't think that will change very many people's DPS output. Yes, you can show them what they are doing wrong but more often than not, they will stick with what there used to. I accept that I am absolutely horrible at some jobs but thankfully, the Trust system exists so I can level my DRG and NIN and MNK and ETC to 80 without making others suffer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Melichoir

While I wont say that this is always the case, Ive seen plenty of logs where players are in 450 gear doing 3-4k dps as a monk, RDM, BLM, etc.

---

Problem is: They usually don't know that they're the problem. Best ase is they say nothing, worst case is they start blaming the party. Making the content harder would just lead to them blaming the party more, bc we know that in an MMO it's always everyone else's fault and everyone but they themself is toxic ^^

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hyperia

I doubt this will happen because SE is in business of making money and punishing players at every turn will get them to quit... which is very bad for business. Just look at what happened to Wildstar, they tried that... didn't end well for them. Like it or not, this is supposed to be a very accessible theme park MMO, SE's own words.

---

You need a middle ground though. Wildstar definitely made the mistake of marketing too much to hardcore players. On the otherhand, WoW (among other issues) has made the mistake of making their game more and more accessible and have been on a steep decline in subscribers ever since WoD. Their classes simply stopped being fun to play, their casual content had less mechanics that mattered, loot rained from the sky and players got bored within a few weeks.

The middle ground ideally is accessible to all players, but has a high skill ceiling and lots of depth, with content on a smooth, consistent increase in difficulty the more you level and higher you go. Easy to learn, hard to master. This way there are always goals for players of every ability. There's always a next step just dangling almost in reach.
FF14 is actually quite good on some of this, but in other ways strays from the path. The gap in difficulty between some content is massive. Sometimes the depth and skill ceiling is removed. Not everything has to be beaten by everyone.

So gonna make this point: If SE tightens fights, making htem harder, yes you will get some players who will quit but that is fine. More players will join up long term, and stay invested long term. The counterintuitive point is that harder games (within reason) have healthier player bases with greater individual investment. They garner more respect broadly in the gaming community, keep engagement longer (because it challanges players and offers nothing for free) and can foster better communities. When you start dumbing down the content and making it casual, you get less player investment. People dont care if they dont try cause they know theyll succeed anyways. Doing 3-4k dps in 450 gear is perfectly fine cause content doesnt require anything from then other then pushing a button or two every few seconds. Entitlement from players being coddled to much and not caring that their lack of engagement requires everyone else to work harder. Elitism crops of much more because the gulf between the skilled and unskilled becomes noticeable. And because of that "You dont pay my sub" mentality that crops up from extreme casual part of the player base, resentment grows as the better players dont like engaging with these lazier players, and these lazier players hate the better players for personal reasons or cause they get hit with resentment. It becomes a mess overall.

yes, Youll see people quit. But it will more likely be players who dont have investment in the game in any regards, and the casual base (read average players) would be more likely in favor of the harder content if it meant a challenge that meant something. If you dont think thats the case, how often do we see threads pop up here or on reddit requesting more mid tier content (stuff thats not savage, but harder than normal content). And with increased difficulty, you can increase savage and EX, satisfy the hardcore base more, and draw in players who want a fun but challenging experience.

As a thought that popped into my head to drive this home: Sometimes it is better for a business to change its audience a bit to attract more players, even if that means a small subset of players leave. Weve seen this already: Harder MMOs dumbed downwards to broaden their player base so more people can participate. That was necessary. But the pendulum has swung to far now. MMOs are investing to heavily in the 'casual' scene - forsaking harder content out of fears the best bet is to appeal to the lowest common denominator. This ends up leaving the game filled with unskilled players who arent invested, and dissatisfying players who are looking for a challenge. It is very much the case that game devs have begun forgetting that part of the appeal of a game is the challenge involved. Youll catch more players now and hold their attention longer (as well as get them to invest more than a monthly sub) with a more challenging experience than if they keep simplifying and trying to appease players who have no investment in the game in of itself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

You need a middle ground though. Wildstar definitely made the mistake of marketing too much to hardcore players. On the otherhand, WoW (among other issues) has made the mistake of making their game more and more accessible and have been on a steep decline in subscribers ever since WoD. Their classes simply stopped being fun to play, their casual content had less mechanics that mattered, loot rained from the sky and players got bored within a few weeks.

The middle ground ideally is accessible to all players, but has a high skill ceiling and lots of depth, with content on a smooth, consistent increase in difficulty the more you level and higher you go. Easy to learn, hard to master. This way there are always goals for players of every ability. There's always a next step just dangling almost in reach.
FF14 is actually quite good on some of this, but in other ways strays from the path. The gap in difficulty between some content is massive. Sometimes the depth and skill ceiling is removed. Not everything has to be beaten by everyone.

---

I going to disagree with you. The main problem with the current triple AAA industry is trying to make games for everyone instead of certain demographic and adapt the budgets to realistic numbers. The bigger FFXIV the worst is going to get.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Driavna

I going to disagree with you. The main problem with the current triple AAA industry is trying to make games for everyone instead of certain demographic and adapt the budgets to realistic numbers. The bigger FFXIV the worst is going to get.

---

Theres a point when you go to broad it appeals to no one and no one doesnt get invested. I think thats the core issue - investment is probably down per player in the market, and game companies are relying on whales to heavily. In a nutshell, It's 'fast food' gaming. A game title might make more profit with a smaller but more heavily dedicated player base with a Trim but efficient budget, but theyre to caught up in this idea a game has to appeal to every single person ever.

I honestly think we are currently at a good balance of difficulty curve.

Extreme Innocence and Tatiana are prime examples for the sheer amount of enrages people hit. While Eden normal is for people to experience the story. Savage is has a decent difficulty curve. and once an Ultimate comes around that is suppose to be the toughest of the toughest.

The issue for most of the complains that this game is too easy and accessable is because SE philosophy is asking people to not kill themselves over the game like some of the truly hardcore would. Time and time again in interviews they state that "we are very honored you play your game, but please take a break its ok well still be here when you come back." you can tangibly see it in their game design.