o.O Overkill on the crafting Dumb down?

I think some of us might be taking the removal of parts from recipes slightly out of proportion. Using terms like "totally gutting" and "completely destroying" and other generalizations belie what is really being done to recipes.

Making a finished product usually required the following hierarchy of synths:

Raw Material ---SYNTH---> Refined Material ---SYNTH---> Part ---SYNTH---> Finished Product

After this adjustment in 1.19 it will be:

Raw Material ---SYNTH---> Refined Material ---SYNTH---> Finished Product

Yes, it will remove 1/3rd of the synths necessary to make a completed product. But in my opinion, making recipes 33% simpler is not a terribly radical change.

As to the loss of SP due to lack of parts to grind on ... all the Development Team has to do is increase the SP gain by 33% for the remaining synth steps, and the grind-crafters can grind to their hearts content on Refined Materials or Finished Products instead of Parts with no loss in SP/hour.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

Yoshida had a chance to speak about the large discussion that has been revolving around the recently announced changes to crafting.

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I'm glad to read this, and I'm interested to see what Yoshi has to say on Tuesday.

Don't ruin my chainmail!

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Originally Posted by Sorel

I think some of us might be taking the removal of parts from recipes slightly out of proportion. Using terms like "totally gutting" and "completely destroying" and other generalizations belie what is really being done to recipes.

Making a finished product usually required the following hierarchy of synths:

Raw Material ---SYNTH---> Refined Material ---SYNTH---> Part ---SYNTH---> Finished Product

After this adjustment in 1.19 it will be:

Raw Material ---SYNTH---> Refined Material ---SYNTH---> Finished Product

Yes, it will remove 1/3rd of the synths necessary to make a completed product. But in my opinion, making recipes 33% simpler is not a terribly radical change.

As to the loss of SP due to lack of parts to grind on ... all the Development Team has to do is increase the SP gain by 33% for the remaining synth steps, and the grind-crafters can grind to their hearts content on Refined Materials or Finished Products instead of Parts with no loss in SP/hour.

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Refined materials would be too low a level to grind on. Can you imagine a level 25 blacksmith trying to grind to 26 on iron nuggets? Not gonna happen.

Finished items are also not an option for grinding, at least not a valid one. The shard and gil costs are far too high. It would bankrupt all but the most wealthy, who coincidentally are already at cap, hence the wealth.

It is those intermediary recipes that are the grind staples. Without them, things will be very rough indeed. Unless they have already anticipated that (one would hope) and have come up with a solution already. Maybe they have. Maybe they will tell us on Tues.

I don't mind difficult to obtain materials. I DO mind having 8 materials for everything and having to go all over kingdom come to get them, or having to craft eich material which uses crafted materials to make those materials which each require crafted materials.

Craft interdependence should be reduced some, but not eliminated. The effort required to raise multiple crafts is one of the thing that makes some of these items valuable.

Making different colored items, that part hit the nail on the head and it indeed is ridiculously overcomplicated. Having a robe consist of a front part, back part, top part, and more materials on top of that is overcomplicated- And on top of that, players are hit with these complications right from the beginning of a craft.

TL; DR: strike a balance between oversimplified and overcomplicated.

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Originally Posted by Holland

Stuff...

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Basics is:

chunk of metal + wood = sword

Basics is not just cutting out all recipes of a certain type and leaving everything else exactly the same.

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Originally Posted by Wynn

shard and gil costs are far too high. It would bankrupt all but the most wealthy, who coincidentally are already at cap, hence the wealth.

It is those intermediary recipes that are the grind staples. Without them, things will be very rough indeed. Unless they have already anticipated that (one would hope) and have come up with a solution already. Maybe they have. Maybe they will tell us on Tues.

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I do acknowledge and share your concern about the curve but remember in the last update yoshi specifically said that they were going to take a scapel to the SP curve for DoH:

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Originally Posted by Yoshi-P

The growth curve for Disciples of the Hand, in particular, is in need of attention, and we’ll be taking a scalpel to that also.

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Also shards and crystals are way easier to get now than they were at launch. With the fish to shard recipes coming from alchemist, shards are just another raw material to be produced. People leveling alchemist should put a lot of them on the market (once there is more of a playerbase)

They also might lower shard and crystal costs - but really shards and crystals being sort of expensivish is a great thing for noobs, since it is a drop that they don't have to fit in their inventory that higher ranked people need. There isn't a lot that a noob has to sell to someone with multiple 50s. I don't see the harm in crystals being a high cost associated with crafting, especially since it seems the idea of DoL and DoH being full classes seems to be have been all but abandoned.

(not that I agree with that either)

But realistically the only people that are able to afford to powergrind (even under the old system/current system) are/were people who were already established. It has always been very expensive to level up most crafts. Get to silver/coral level goldsmith - or Yew carpenter... that has always been expensive. Grinding crafts is not what the average "just starting" player does.

The average player is probably going to do most of their craft leveling through leves if at all. And leves are an interesting balance - they allow pretty much any player - over time to gain levels in crafting without spending money. So there is a pauper's route.

That's good. And less sub crafts is also good. Think of the frustration of the starting player who is interested in carpentry, and then finds that they can make almost nothing on their own - and no one sells the other parts they need. People ragequit when they felt they had to level every craft or form a guild with people to make even the most basic things - doesn't anyone here remember that? How many friends left the game when they spent two hours looking for a level 9 weapon and then gave up on the game? I remember.

Anyway it is important to think not just of ourselves but of the future player, if we want this game to continue.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

I was not aware that a Rank 12 Weaver could purchase a training manual. I was always under the impression that you had to be high enough rank to join a guild before they let you purchase training.

Am I mistaken?

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Actually you are right, but it doesn't matter. A level 12 can easily do level 18 crafts with just master support.

Actually, let me strike that statement. I remember where I was going with that line of logic. Take for example you are a level 13 Blacksmith but you are also a level 30 something goldsmith who has the nailcasting book. That BSM can do the level 19 bronze gorge hook recipe. That's just an example, but that was my train of thought on that. Lots of books can be purchased from several different craft guilds.

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Originally Posted by LuxLex

I agree with you somewhat on the causes, but not entirely. My wvr is 12. I can make some lower leveled gear. I did actually... but it took a long time. It sold quite fast, so there is a demand for it. But I priced it low enough so that a noob could actually afford it, meaning if I had done ANYTHING other than make those clothes (given the time it took) I would have made 10 times as much gil.

A lot of that is because of the complexity of the recipes. Yes, higher ranked stuff will be worth more and I wouldn't expect a rank 40 wvr to waste time making rank 10 gear - but it isn't even worth a rank 12 weaver making rank 10 gear at the moment - and that is a problem caused by the unnecessary complexity of the recipes.

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You made some hempen item.
Now i dont want to be rude or anything, but ive made rank 20-30 items in mass production (finished items) before.
As any well used to the wards crafter will know (or for that matter anyone who does a lot of skilling on recipes found themselves) finding what items to use, and purchases/obtaining those is most of the work involved.
In other words, considering that those would put up items on ah for sale would also mass produce these, the ''complexity'' of said items is hardly an issue, but rather the limited space on retainers/inventory.

Sure it might take 15-30 minutes to get that one item made, but tell me, exactly how long does it take for one such item to make if you were to make more then one of them?

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Originally Posted by Wynn

Refined materials would be too low a level to grind on. Can you imagine a level 25 blacksmith trying to grind to 26 on iron nuggets? Not gonna happen.

Finished items are also not an option for grinding, at least not a valid one. The shard and gil costs are far too high. It would bankrupt all but the most wealthy, who coincidentally are already at cap, hence the wealth.

It is those intermediary recipes that are the grind staples. Without them, things will be very rough indeed. Unless they have already anticipated that (one would hope) and have come up with a solution already. Maybe they have. Maybe they will tell us on Tues.

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Speaking as a Rank 24 Blacksmith, I have to say that when I do grind (which is rarely) I make [item=10002012]Iron Ingot[/item]. I find that they are more useful than parts, so I have no qualms about keeping them in storage.

Honestly, I must have missed the boat on the whole grind-crafting phenomenon. I get the majority of my SP from local levequests and daily tasks. So personally, the loss of parts in recipes is a net-positive for me. I use fewer crystals and shards and it takes less time for me to put my Finished Products on the market. But I understand not everyone has this approach to crafting.

Nonetheless, I believe that Tier 1 and Tier 2 Refined Materials are plenty enough "parts" and complexity for the creation of Finished Products. I know others believe differently, and I respect that. Only time will tell who's belief is closer to what will become reality.