Missing Genders: A request for Male Miqote, Female Highlander, and Female Roegadyn

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Originally Posted by Natabant

well first off what i meant by "on the side" was that, from what the original director said, that they were done with the design of both male miqote and female roegadyn (dont know about female highlander, but i think that was in an interveiw also), so i would guess the only thing they "didn't have the manpower" to do before was the programming part for gear, weapons, etc. So i honestly dont think it would take that much "manpower" to slowly TRY and impliment the extra genders for the races. And second, the "very limited niche" ur talking about has been asking for male mithra/miqote and female galka/roegadyn since the beginning of FFXI, and its not just a few people, its quite a bit. If you don't want the extra race genders that's fine, it's your choice to like what you want, but alot of us wouldnt mind a little bit more variety. One of the main reasons i want the male miqote, female highlander, and the female roegadyn is because i don't like when any game makes single gender races, especially if they exist in the world/lore.

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You seem to think that a few people (that by the way, tend to be always the same) on a forum are identifiable as anything else than a very limited niche compared to the big picture of a game's userbase.
"done with the design" can mean a whole lot of things. It can (and probably does, since no company scraps work in a very advanced state, unless it's not satisfactory) easily mean that they have some character design sketches in place. Do you know how much work comes after that to implement a race/gender?

Creating all the design variations, equipment (because equipment models aren't just textures slapped on a generic body. every single piece of equipment needs to be modeled on each body type or head), expression, voice files, animations (involvig all the motion capture work), syncing of animations, playtesting...

That's a crapload of work, and that's not something that can easily be done "on the side", especially in a game that involes such an high level of visual detail as FFXIV.
It would most definitely take a large amount of resources that shouldn't be taken away from much more urgent content that can be enjoyed by everyone.

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Originally Posted by Otemori

You are right on that turn. I by no means imagine that a tweak in genders is going to take priority. I do hope to see it somewhere down the line though. I am playing the game, and enjoying it, despite some things that disappoint me. Some of those things will be changed in the short run and some over the long haul. It's worth discussing though.
I have no desire to compare the world of of WoW to FFXIV, but I did notice that Blizzard found the time to implement some more minor adjustments to suit the changing tastes of players with each update. Some with basic patches.

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WoW has character models and skeletons that are on a whole different scale of complexity as opposed to FFXIV models. Basically it's like comparing the sketch of a 5 years old with one drawn by Leonardo. Less complexity = easier to implement changes.

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With all of the things that are in the works, I do wonder why Square Enix chose to release FFXIV before they were ready.

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The most prominent cause is, probably, the fact that they had several co-marketing deals with PC brands in Japan since several months before launch. Delaying the launch would have broken those deals, and I doubt the executives of the company considered it an acceptable choice.

Mind you, I'm all for muscular or athletic women in games. As a matter of fact, I prefer them to extra-lean ones. But I'm aware of the level of work involved by the introduction of even one race/gender combination, and I can easily guarantee that it's a much, much more complex process that some would like to believe.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

You seem to think that a few people (that by the way, tend to be always the same) on a forum are identifiable as anything else than a very limited niche compared to the big picture of a game's userbase.
"done with the design" can mean a whole lot of things. It can (and probably does, since no company scraps work in a very advanced state, unless it's not satisfactory) easily mean that they have some character design sketches in place. Do you know how much work comes after that to implement a race/gender?

Creating all the design variations, equipment (because equipment models aren't just textures slapped on a generic body. every single piece of equipment needs to be modeled on each body type or head), expression, voice files, animations (involvig all the motion capture work), syncing of animations, playtesting...

That's a crapload of work, and that's not something that can easily be done "on the side", especially in a game that involes such an high level of visual detail as FFXIV.
It would most definitely take a large amount of resources that shouldn't be taken away from much more urgent content that can be enjoyed by everyone.

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Actually i do know how much work goes into it, im currently getting my degree in game and simulation design, and i never said that there wasnt alot of work involved, and now that you get more into it i agree with you, but who knows how far they actually got into the character design, it is one thing im curious about and would like to know. Either way unless they change the lore/story they are eventually going to have to add those race genders, unless they just keep them "invisible", which would be pretty lame lol (at least in FFXI in the last expansion they added a male mithra to the storyline XD). And like i said in an earlier post, i have no problem with them getting the more important things out of the way first, i was just hoping for the extra race genders at ps3 launch (when i plan on playing for real with friends) or for the first expansion. But if they never add them i wont cry about it, ill just start as something else and get over it, its not a big deal really.

Yes, please. Give us these genders. The male Miqo'te shown 25 seconds in has always dogged me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wc0il...feature=fvwrel

Holy shit I never saw that before.... There is very definate beard definition on that chin as well as the lack of breasts.

wow...

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Originally Posted by Abriael

WoW has character models and skeletons that are on a whole different scale of complexity as opposed to FFXIV models. Basically it's like comparing the sketch of a 5 years old with one drawn by Leonardo. Less complexity = easier to implement changes.

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As I said before, I haven't the slightest knowledge of game design. That isn't for lack of trying, either. Knowing that game design isn't something you can just pick up and understand by doing some quick reading, I have an immediate appreciation for the complexity of the tasks at hand. Perhaps not a full appreciation, as only full understanding can lend to that, but an appreciation at any rate.
That being said, it only makes sense to me that with the development of new technology comes the efficiency of its use. If, as you are suggesting, Square Enix would find it too complicated to make even slight changes to already existing character models (such as hairstyles) then perhaps SE has set itself up for failure here.

To your comparison, the hand of someone with skill should be equally up to the task of adjusting its creations as it is to originally creating them. Adjustment is, after all, part in parcel with the definition of "skill".

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Originally Posted by Abriael

The most prominent cause is, probably, the fact that they had several co-marketing deals with PC brands in Japan since several months before launch. Delaying the launch would have broken those deals, and I doubt the executives of the company considered it an acceptable choice.

Mind you, I'm all for muscular or athletic women in games. As a matter of fact, I prefer them to extra-lean ones. But I'm aware of the level of work involved by the introduction of even one race/gender combination, and I can easily guarantee that it's a much, much more complex process that some would like to believe.

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I had no idea about any business obligations. It's too bad if that is the truth. It seems that premature obligations have interrupted a good chance at some MMO innovation.

WoW uses a system very similar to XIV's though. One Generic Item is created in mesh and the multiple textures are created to fill the mesh in various ways.

A huge majority of all the items in WoW are recycled meshes with new textures. And they can use the same system in XIV they can even alpha off individual model elements like armor skirts and knee pads to make the mesh appear different but at the core its the same full blown mesh used in various armors.

This reduces generation time for character designs simply by making it so a single texture can be used by all races, Currently I believe the only races that have modified textures for their armors are Lalafells (shared between both genders) and Miqo'te (Tails) The Miqo'te armors generally do no have breast detail painted onto the texture of the armor itself and instead use geometry to create the breast shape on the texture so the texture is possible sharable in some cases with the male Miqo'te and I have no doubt the Female Roegadyn and Female Hyur Highlanders could share the same textures with the rest of the normalized races (Hyur, Elezen and Roegadyn)

I was always pretty disappointed, because SE never gave a definite yes or no to the male miqote + female highlander/roe question. The best answer I saw was pretty much like... we have the models, but we aren't going to implement them at this time.

Why the heck not? People have been asking for them since FFXI. It seems almost rude to not do it at this point, especially considering FFXIV's lore is different from XI's.

Either way, they'll probably never do it. If they didn't do it with XI in it's 7, almost 8 years of service... it won't happen in XIV... not until an expansion, anyway (and that's being hopeful).

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

WoW uses a system very similar to XIV's though. One Generic Item is created in mesh and the multiple textures are created to fill the mesh in various ways.

A huge majority of all the items in WoW are recycled meshes with new textures. And they can use the same system in XIV they can even alpha off individual model elements like armor skirts and knee pads to make the mesh appear different but at the core its the same full blown mesh used in various armors.

This reduces generation time for character designs simply by making it so a single texture can be used by all races, Currently I believe the only races that have modified textures for their armors are Lalafells (shared between both genders) and Miqo'te (Tails) The Miqo'te armors generally do no have breast detail painted onto the texture of the armor itself and instead use geometry to create the breast shape on the texture so the texture is possible sharable in some cases with the male Miqo'te and I have no doubt the Female Roegadyn and Female Hyur Highlanders could share the same textures with the rest of the normalized races (Hyur, Elezen and Roegadyn)

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I had a feeling that this is the way it works. Admittedly, it's only because of what little I learned of meshes from Sims 3 character/hair/clothing design. But...this comes back to efficiency. Manipulating basic meshes is more efficient than what Abriael is proposing happens. Either could be true, but the latter is not a logical way to carry out programming. It is not a logical way to carry out anything unless a company has unlimited resources.

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Originally Posted by Otemori

I had no idea about any business obligations. It's too bad if that is the truth. It seems that premature obligations have interrupted a good chance at some MMO innovation.

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I can confirm that such obligations did indeed exist. They were evident to anyone that visited any japanese website or relevant media during the few months prior to release. basically every PC manufacturer in Japan struck a deal with SE to use the FXIV brand in order to publicize their PCs. The game itself moved a ton of hi-specs gaming PCs in japan.

By the way, I'm not saying that was a good idea. Quite the contrary, as it put developers in a bottleneck. But unfortunately in this industry it isn't rare at all that executives put developers in this situation.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

WoW uses a system very similar to XIV's though. One Generic Item is created in mesh and the multiple textures are created to fill the mesh in various ways.

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The wow system is much easier to work on simply because the detail is infinitely less (and there are less effects applied, like normal mapping)

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This reduces generation time for character designs simply by making it so a single texture can be used by all races, Currently I believe the only races that have modified textures for their armors are Lalafells (shared between both genders) and Miqo'te (Tails) The Miqo'te armors generally do no have breast detail painted onto the texture of the armor itself and instead use geometry to create the breast shape on the texture so the texture is possible sharable in some cases with the male Miqo'te and I have no doubt the Female Roegadyn and Female Hyur Highlanders could share the same textures with the rest of the normalized races (Hyur, Elezen and Roegadyn)

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Textures in most models in FFXIV actually requires a certain amount of optimization to fit different races (otherwise the details would stretch horribly as they do in wow). Also, the amount of texture recycling that happens involves textures, but meshes need to be manually adapted to different body types.
That's because the same piece of equipment has different dat files (or entries in a dat file) for different races/genders.

I SERIOUSLY doubt that female roegadyns and highlanders should use the same body type. The two races have completely different features.

I understand that this issue is important to you, but I don't think it's advisable to encourage a sloppy implementation just to get it into the game.

Anyone knows why are there no female galkas in xiv (the xiv name is a tongue twister)? In XI it was lore related, but here? No idea. They don't seem to reincarnate.

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Originally Posted by RabidSquirrel

Yes, please. Give us these genders. The male Miqo'te shown 25 seconds in has always dogged me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wc0il...feature=fvwrel

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That is a male mithra ! I been wanting SE to make them playable as well as the other conterparts. The lore is diff now , no reason not to. I think it's time to step out of XI's shadow.

i like that video Seems the Male miqote have a youthful pretty boy look... YAY for not being ugly thundercat-ish catmen XD i think i'd physically harm someone if they looked anything like Panthro...

I agree, I want a male Mithra! I would totally start over for that race. :D

I would very much like to see these implemented into the game... It really bothered me that it took YEARS to make even a SINGLE male Mithra in FFXI show up. ( <3 Lehko!)

Additionally, I really don't see any references to female Roegadyns or male Miqo'te that parallel the "omg there aren't enough that they can stop breeding" excuses that were made for FFXI's male Mithra population and why they don't adventure showing up...

Red XIII is Canid though not feline. Thats not a good branching point for anything feline.

Who cares? I think you're getting too worked up about this - so what if they end up making male Miqo'tes look effeminate? I really don't understand where you're coming from.

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Originally Posted by Melantha

Who cares? I think you're getting too worked up about this - so what if they end up making male Miqo'tes look effeminate? I really don't understand where you're coming from.

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none of the other male races are so it would be a welcome change for most people.

Interestingly enough, it was mentioned in the Goldsmith rank 20 class quest that a female Roegadyn was so beautiful that it inspired a jewelry to be crafted in her name. Makes me kinda curious what one looks like...

Seriously though, I could care less about needing opposite genders on everything. If I really want that, I'd go play Rift or WoW or some other MMO.

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Originally Posted by RabidSquirrel

Yes, please. Give us these genders. The male Miqo'te shown 25 seconds in has always dogged me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wc0il...feature=fvwrel

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...Well I'm pretty sure we have a compelling case here. Not to mention that there are male Miqo'te in some of the official artwork as well.

Seriously SE. Do it. If they really wanna make a splash and get everyone to stop the whole "FFXI-2" shtick, then this would be the way to do it.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

Red XIII is Canid though not feline. Thats not a good branching point for anything feline.

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Hm, it's always on this debate people argue that Nanaki is a canine, and not a feline. When I see Nanaki, I look at his tail...and his mane. I mean it just screams lion to me.

I fully support the introduction of all three missing options.

I've encountered a ton of npcs talking about male miqo'te, one even says they live in Ul'dah but no-one seems to see them. Which shows a consciousness on part of the writing team that they should be there somewhere.

Female roegadyn, frankly, i think could easily be the most attractive race, think like... wonder woman style attractive, the strong Amazonian woman. muscled, but with very very deliberate curves. You telling me that wouldn't turn you on?

As for the hyur, i don't understand why there was no female option in the first place, as it's a clan and not a full new race technically. There's no reason for not having them, even if they were just midlanders with different faces i'd be happy enough.

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Originally Posted by Rahsch

Hm, it's always on this debate people argue that Nanaki is a canine, and not a feline. When I see Nanaki, I look at his tail...and his mane. I mean it just screams lion to me.

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The fur on his neck and his tail are not contributing factors to his classification.

His bone structure, snout shape, ear shape, paws, walk and gait are all factors of his classification and they are more canidea then feline.


Also the fact that he growls and howls.

Felines roar and hiss.

Lol so everyone want's a male miqo'te and female roegadyn be implemented... well I think it would be somewhat "fine"; the more content added; the better the game becomes, everyone has different tastes and/or wanna try different stuff in-game.

I vote up for them to implement the missing stuff! :)

AMG, i'd switch to a big buff female Roegadyn in a second. Hah! Please make it happen!!

I've said before that I wanted to have an aquatic race introduced maybe.

I'd be totally cool if I could be a male Miqo'te instead.

I want my character to represent that "feral" feel.

i'm for SE adding all the missing race genders ^^b

I am 110% for this! I wouldn't want to play any of them, but I would love to see them as my fellow players around Eorzea.

Female Roe and Highlanders I could see as slightly taller ladies with more defined musculature and more curves. Female hyurs may be decently curvy for their overall size, but their muscle definition is pretty much zero and they appear rather fine boned. Some sexy, physically powerful looking women would be awesome. And they could maybe have some less typically "pretty/sexy" options as well . . . after all, females aren't obligated to be pretty and dainty and girly, right? ;)

Male Mi'qote could be so neat. As the female Mi'qote are smaller than Hyurs and have a somewhat more androgenous figure (really, my Hyur female next to my friends Mi'qote is much curvier!), I'd hope that male Mi'qote would be more like boyish young men than BIG MANLY MEN! I think the Hyurs and Roe (and heck, even Elezen, they are so big!) have that area pretty well covered already, and besides, males aren't obligated to be big and muscular and manly, right? ;) Also, the whole "the males are reclusive and antisocial with other races!" thing doesn't fly as an excuse not to have them, since according to lore Mi'qote are supposed to be comparatively few in number. Riiiight. xD

I'm sure new races wouldn't be high up on SE's To-Do List, but it'd be nice to know that they were at least on it.

I am 200% for having the missing genders implemented into the game. This thread has my /thumbsup for sexy boyish male miqote's.

Did I really just read 23 pages on this topic?

Regardless, I am putting my stamp of approval on the addition of the missing genders. Though I would not change my race/gender (I've grown quite fond of this one) I agree with the topic on principle. People should have the option, and I would like to see them as well. I might have made a male Miq if they were available back in September.

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Originally Posted by RabidSquirrel

Yes, please. Give us these genders. The male Miqo'te shown 25 seconds in has always dogged me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wc0il...feature=fvwrel

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sorry to be off topic but,
I just watched the first 5 vids from that series; "The making of a realm"... Wow, this game was really supposed to be the most amazing title we'd ever seen. And it was all overshadowed by a poor decision to release the game too early :(

watch some of the vids, only a few minutes long each. It revamped my appreciation for how good looking the game is.

I'd love to play as a male miqo'te, even though it doesn't reflect my gender irl. I just wouldn't be able to resist the cuteness. The idea of it just makes me smile, especially if they end up being more boyish than RRRRRGH GRUFF MANLY MAN type of models. It would be a hard decision between male miqo'te and female roe, especially if both of them are done well.

I also agree on having more options for female models - my miqo'te is too skinny. I already deal with borderline creepy skinniness every day... I don't need to be staring at it while I'm playing a game. hahaha

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Originally Posted by Shelia

I'd love to play as a male miqo'te, even though it doesn't reflect my gender irl.

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Same here, I would have had to put some thought between the choice of male or female if I had an option for both! It would be something very different but still along the lines of what I want to play.

And maybe it's my feminist side showing, but I'm not caring for the way they have been modeling some of the gear so far for female characters (coatees in particular, I've noticed something similar starting with the 'dark knight' gear art preview). You mean my girl has to go and show off her boobs/skin while guys can show off in a kick ass fashion? Playing a male Miqo would eliminate this issue for me while keeping with the race I'd like, but I'm going into something off topic with this.

My current Miqote looks pretty boyish as is but Its the hair and clothing options (Leather Dodojacket) mostly.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

My current Miqote looks pretty boyish as is but Its the hair and clothing options (Leather Dodojacket) mostly.

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There ain't nothin' more dudish than some man stubble though. :)

Quite a few people have been saying that the male miqote would be super effeminate, but thats not necessarily true. Compare this picture of Lehko (a male mithra from FFXI): http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/a...ko_Habhoka.jpg to a concept art of a male miqote in FFXIV: http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/a...iv_concept.jpg its quite a big difference between the two. The male miqote looks much less effeminate than the FFXI version to me.

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Originally Posted by Natabant

Quite a few people have been saying that the male miqote would be super effeminate, but thats not necessarily true. Compare this picture of Lehko (a male mithra from FFXI): http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/a...ko_Habhoka.jpg to a concept art of a male miqote in FFXIV: http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/a...iv_concept.jpg its quite a big difference between the two. The male miqote looks much less effeminate than the FFXI version to me.

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Didn't you get the memo?

Anything with hair on its head is effeminate.

:)

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Originally Posted by Malakhim

Didn't you get the memo?

Anything with hair on its head is effeminate.

:)

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oh your right, my bad lol :P

I'd love to see SE add the missing genders. If they added male Miqotes I'd definitely switch over to one.

Also, I wish people would stop referencing FFXI lore as the reasoning behind not adding them. If these races were exactly like FFXI's, they would have the same name and look exactly the same. If you like FFXI and its lore that's fine, but this is a different game.

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Originally Posted by Exiledraven

I'd love to see SE add the missing genders. If they added male Miqotes I'd definitely switch over to one.

Also, I wish people would stop referencing FFXI lore as the reasoning behind not adding them. If these races were exactly like FFXI's, they would have the same name and look exactly the same. If you like FFXI and its lore that's fine, but this is a different game.

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Any time someone mentions FFXI's lore as a basis for not incorporating the missing genders in XIV it means they didn't read the first post which means their comments are invalid.

Funny how people demanding a manthra can't even agree between themselves. Some want an effeminate furry Bishonen, some others want a "lion" with a strong masculine feel...
Bet that if they finally caved in and implemented one, all hell would break lose for the ones disappointed that SE didn't chose "their" vision.

It's no wonder SE doesn't want to get into that mess :D