Discussion: User Created UI Addons?

SE has always been firm about balance between versions, and not usign anything that gives more advantage over others. WIth the PS3 version, there will be a limit to addons.

PArasersare not completly accurate. You cna run 3 parsers and get 3 different numbers. THe battle system and fights are also different. IF you want to have an idea of your own damage to improve yourself, then fine, as long as you realize the parser is a ruff idea, most can visually see damage they are doing and realize what stats are helping more.

Then again DPS is not the only aspect. FOr BLm's, THMS, and other dps, constint high DPS is bad. You will have more duties then spamming spells at a mob. A better hate meter is more of a benifit then a parser.

If you are going to use some random parser to spam your DPS in a party situation, then you will probably annoy more people then having any benifit. Especially if you were not paying attention to the fight grabbed hate and whiped the party. Heavy DPS classes can do that easily. BLM's can grab hate in 2-3 casts. So it's tiem to back off.

Currently, a player with large sums of gil and the ability to meld IV materia, will out parse the adverage player. But said materia will actually mean you need to watch damage even more. HAndy for the tank, not so much for casters and other dps that can't afford to grab to much attention.

Other MMO battle system don't have such an easy hate grabbing ability.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

things that mods/addons do is that it is forcing people to actually install that "shit" if they dont want to have disadvantages against those who use it. and thats a terrible idea in my opinion.

why not making the entire original UI good enough. well.. well..


i like the idea of cutsomizing the outward appearance of the UI. For example switching the job icons in the group menu against 2D sprites of classic FF's. But what i dont like is the idea to make a number fest out of the FF franchise and to give people advantages to those who have installed any of these addons. (you are 1 metre away from target etc.)


now then we have boss fights were everybody says "do not get 10 metre near the boss, otherwise you will get hit by an aeo attack" ... for me it is like making it far easier, in this case you cheat the game design, thats a fact.. because in the original version it is not visible to your character.
so you can say its kind of using a cheat in an offline game. making things easier, than just playing the original version.
Or please just tell me the difference.

these addons just persuade you that you REALLY need "features" like these. so disturbing to me personally. im not against addons which change the appearance of the UI, giving it a classic FF7/FF9 look to it or whatever..

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For a mod to trivialize encounters that are reliant on distance from a target, API has to be exposed that allows someone to check the distance between the player and the target with accuracy.

WOW does not have something like this. The best that it has is a boolean check if the target is within Follow, Inspect, Trade, or Duel range. It's not accurate and does not work on NPCs.

Besides that, there were several topics over the last year asking for a distance-to-NPC display on the target frame. If SE opens up the API so you can check a distance to an NPC, but does not implement it in the default UI, then that's SE's fault and they're bad developers.

Anitipika got a valid point.

FFXIV as it is now, wouldnt benefit from many, or any addons in its current state.

This is mainly because of the battle-mechanics, at the moment its not even close to FFXI or WoW "quality".
(sorry, dont really know how to put it better....)

However, we are seeing more & more progress regarding these things.

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If SE opens up the API so you can check a distance to an NPC, but does not implement it in the default UI, then that's SE's fault and they're bad developers.

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what kind of logic are you guys using? if SE does not want to implement this into their standard UI that is for just one reason... because they do not want to make all those numbers visible for the players so that it wont get that much easy for them.

a good player skill is that you know on your OWN when you are too close to the target that you get hit by an AEO attack. (to his experience in that specific boss fight)

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Originally Posted by Antipika

Driving a car with automatic pilot isn't challenging.

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well then.. leave the automatic pilot out of the game and it still remains challenging.. problem solved... *shrug*

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Originally Posted by Laughlyn

at the moment its not even close to FFXI or WoW "quality".
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I want to see WoW players kill garuda without any addon.

you define quality with having lots of tool gadgets and numbers to look on? XD
that you dont have any addons now doesnt mean, that WoW has a better "quality" because it's game design is built on user created addons.... how stupid is that logic.

guys, you seriously played WoW for too long...
different game, different playstyle. leave it that way.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

what kind of logic are you guys using? if SE does not want to implement this into their standard UI that is for just one reason... because they do not want to make all those numbers visible for the players so that it wont get that much easy for them.

a good player skill is that you know on your OWN when you are too close to the target that you get hit by an AEO attack. (to his experience in that specific boss fight)

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What kind of logic are YOU using? Exposing API is a deliberate action, and they have to deliberately create an API to check the distance to a target. If they create that as an API, but do not have a way to check distance to a target with the default UI, then that is their fault and they've intentionally created a situation where the default UI does not have all the necessary tools.

Opening up API does not imply that you would be able to do anything that you want with the game. You are only able to do what SE wants you to be able to do.

Don't bother arguing with Tonkra, it's a lost cause :d I gave up on that ><

I honestly don't know what makes people think that "allowing addons" is an on/off switch that gives the players full access to all game code. That's not how that works guys.

Player 1: Hi party! thanks for inviting me!

Player 2: "Shows dps meters"

Player 1: Oh nice dps everyone!

Player 2: "Shows dps meters"

Player 2: "Shows dps meters"

Player 2: "Shows dps meters"

Player 1: Ok, we know where everyone is at already...

Player 2: "Shows dps meters"

Player 2: "Shows dps meters"

Player 2: "Shows dps meters"

Player 2: "Shows dps meters"

Player 3: YOU $%%# BETTER PICK UP THE DPS OR I'LL KICK YOU PLAYER 1 %$#$%

Player 2: "Shows dps meters"

Player 2: "Shows dps meters"

Player 2: "Shows dps meters"

Player 1: ......

Player 3: OK THATS IT OMG$%#$% BYE YOU FCKIN SCRUB!!

Player 1 has been kicked from party.






^Little preview of addons and the "Content finder"

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Originally Posted by Ptolemy

some dumb stuff

^Little preview of addons and the "Content finder"

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I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen this happen in a pick-up group in 5 years of playing WOW. People rage disband groups before kicking poor players out.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen this happen in a pick-up group in 5 years of playing WOW. People rage disband groups before kicking poor players out.

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Both happened, alot, Consider yourself lucky to only see a few, i did use that as an example though

You're really reaching as far as logic goes.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

I want to see WoW players kill garuda without any addon.

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This has already been done 100x over, i assure you... If you'd like to feel extra silly, look at fusional, who was in the world first kill at that, and clearly played WoW through WotLK. The same qualities serve you well in both games - knowing how to predict, read & respond to encounter mechanics, knowing how to optimize your stats and ability usage, knowing how to optimize your position for highest action/inaction ratio, and knowing how to communicate. These are the pillars of raiding that won't change no matter what game you're playing.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

you define quality with having lots of tool gadgets and numbers to look on? XD
that you dont have any addons now doesnt mean, that WoW has a better "quality" because it's game design is built on user created addons.... how stupid is that logic.

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You should actually read the whole sentence before replying - addons have nothing to do with quality of battle mechanics. Server lag essentially limits the speed at which the battlefield can change with things like damaging ground effects & area spells, boss repositioning, etc. At the same time there's a rich variety of battle mechanics that you don't see in this game yet - player centered area damage effects, bombs that need to be dispelled or healed off a target, prisons you have to break players out of, enemy heals & spells requiring interruption, player-controlled destructible environment, vehicles, split-front battles, the list goes on.

And as for your stance about good players having absolutely no need of addons, I've seen enough "good players" who've needed someone else with an addon to show them they were not doing so great to know that personal evaluation "by feeling" is far from incontrovertible. On that note, from personal experience playing MMOs for 7 years, it's a ways off the mark for the majority of people...

So how do you, as an invested member of the party who doesn't want to waste time, tell who's correctly evaluating their performance when the boss' (or any other encounter-critical monster) health is a mishmash of damage from multiple sources that you can't parse out by eye? Well, an addon that parses might be a good way... right?

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Originally Posted by Ptolemy

Both happened, alot, Consider yourself lucky to only see a few, i did use that as an example though, You probably won't see it much but there is other players...

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Having DPS meters around or not will have almost no effect on people being d**ks to each other. It happened plenty of times in FFXI, because you can figure out right away if a player isn't pulling their weight. The term "gimp" was thrown around a lot, if I recall correctly.

It's simply not something that is common in pick up groups in WOW. There are penalties for kicking players. The fact that it happens to extremely few people on very rare occasions is not enough of a reason to block addon development.

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Originally Posted by TimonLoon

Also, the new UI is made using Scaleform which is also used in RIFT iirc.

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Is this confirmed? Or rather, can you link a source for this? If so, I am officially extremely excited. Scaleform is a substantially slower than Lua, but for UI development I'd much rather work in Flash than in Lua. Not to mention that as an API architecture, it's a much simpler environment to work in.

What Ptolemy said has to be one of the dumber things I've read in this thread, 2nd only to everything Tonkra writes.

The only way I've ever seen someone be kicked due to low dps, was when they were doing exceptionally lower than what they should be able to do, and even then it was only in raiding situations. Nobody gives a fuck what damage you do in dungeons, unless it's clear you're afk and not really contributing anything.

If you take 2 similar players of equal ilvl/gear, one is pulling 40k+ dps and the other is doing 15k, then clearly it's an issue of the player being terrible. That type of player will get replaced quickly if they don't improve.

If some baddie has their bad badness exposed due to a parser, that's a good thing, not bad. They now know that A: they're bad and need to improve, or B: their bad self is getting kicked. And kicking a bad player from your party for a good player is never a bad thing. Well, unless you hate progression and like to carry dead weight anyways. In which case you're probably bad and should feel bad for being so bad.

It's some mythical scenario that's rarely, if ever, happened, where an underperforming player gets kicked out of a group that isn't having problems with the content.

People get kicked when the party can't progress and their performance is the one thing that's holding back the group. Nobody in their right mind would hold the group up, while it's clearing content without issue, just to kick someone that isn't doing as well as the other players.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

you define quality with having lots of tool gadgets and numbers to look on? XD
that you dont have any addons now doesnt mean, that WoW has a better "quality" because it's game design is built on user created addons.... how stupid is that logic.

guys, you seriously played WoW for too long...
different game, different playstyle. leave it that way.

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You obviously completly missunderstood that regarding me saying "Quality".
I do appologize for possibly using a wrongful term.

That was not related in any way to Addons, i was calling the Battle Mechanics quality of both FFXI & WoW.

Meaning terms of defeating a boss, kiting. stop dps'ing at X amount of time, keep
track of raging timers, hp left on mob for insane mob ws on pt etc.

There is no way at present you can compare these battle mechanics to either FFXI,
WoW or any other simmilar MMO's having these more adavanced fights.

played WoW for fdar too long what a bullshit argument,
imo and hardcore players thats called experience.
Not limitating yourself to being stuck to one choice only.

Trust me, 30 years of gaming experience, including a handful of mmo's such as
FFXI, Rift, WoW, FFXIV, SW ToR...and all you see is me playing WoW because
its your little hate focus-point isnt it...now thats sad considering you dont know anything about me.
You wanna go personal with me,...go ahead.

Skill....lol, i favor personality & friends over skill.
Thats what makes a great game experience, but if addons even if it means parser,
UI themes or any other cool feature that will further enhance this gaming experience, hell im game.

Shocker isnt it, welcome to the world of diffrences.

God knows why i asked for a god damn Mailbox 2 years ago?

WoW hater.., maybe its time to grow up & stop being silly...this WoW haters...it's getting old.

There's a damn good reason that game owned any other mmo for as long as it did.
But even so, that didnt stop me from enjoying both games.

FFXI UI! LOVE IT, soo want.

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Originally Posted by Rokien

FFXI UI! LOVE IT, soo want.

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was wondering when you would show up lol.

This is all in regards to damage meters.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

i am able to see for example that there is better equipment on the market available than artifact stuff or what the heck ever..i dont need a parser for that..

it goes like this: better equipment -> the more damage you do. i dont know if you experience this, too.

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It’s instantly shown in this example that you do not understand the real reason that parsers/damage meters are created. Having better equipment essentially DOES mean you will do more damage, HOWEVER, if you don’t perform your rotation and positioning correctly then you’ll be doing less damage than a character of the same class/job who has lesser gear and stats than you do.

There have been so many instances where I've been in much lower ilevel gear and come first on damage meters, against people in heroic raiding gear. When I came top I wasn't thinking ‘omgz check out my dps my e-peen is so huge I just beat everyone with gear so much higher than me’, I was simply proud at the fact that despite having lower gear than everyone else (including other members who were the same class as me), I was able to overcome them in damage whilst being able to position and manoeuvre myself out of harm’s way. This is also help from damage meters from a lot of rotation practise in my spare time, figuring out what works and what doesn’t.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

seriously it makes me sick after years to read "ya in WoW my fat d*ck-o-meter was so great etc."

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I don’t recall there ever being a time that I was on WoW and someone shoved their damage meters in my face, followed by a taunt at how amazing they are, and if it has happened then it's such a rare occasion that I actually forgot about it. If this has actually happened to you, then I’m sorry that you had to group with someone who was being ridiculously immature. You won’t find these types of people only on WoW though, but any game, including FFXIV, and if it’s not about damage meters then it will be about something else.

Realistically speaking, the only time I can see that happening is through a pickup group to a raid. When you’re levelling up, nobody is bothered by your damage output, it’s not important. Damage meters are there for endgame content.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

when you think WoW is so great with stuffs like these.. then go play it... and seriously do you want that kind of community that you have in WoW?

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I don’t want to play World of Warcraft. It’s literally that simple. When you say things like this it only makes you look foolish. Because we’re trying to incorporate what is known as the standard for present MMO’s, it instantly means we want to play the game that already has that? I want to play Final Fantasy XIV, but I also would like features implemented that actually work in an MMO. When it’s said that WoW is so great with these kinds of features, it doesn’t mean we’re trying to make World of Final Fantasy, it means we want to implement a simple addon to let us determine and maximise efficiency for our guilds/grand companies.

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Originally Posted by SoapySan

It seems to be improving in a game is about how you play it, rather then what gear you have. Like I said this is my experience in wow. Improving = getting better gear = judged via dps meters. People post the top 1-10+ and they say, if you aren't on this list you need to leave the party. It's really obnoxious.

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That is very exaggerated. If people were to post the first 1-10 of players, it would indicate a 25 man raid, which usually means 15 damage characters, and even then, someone has to come 15th on damage, even if almost everybody has near equal damage comparison. What would actually be a realistic situation is wiping in a raid, followed by someone posting the damage meters into chat. After a quick look, you can see that (in this example of course) 5 people are below the tanks in damage. It's that situation that you are talking about, and it's in no way obnoxious because it's outrageous for a damaging class to be doing lower damage than a tank. Nobody wants to be wiping all night.

You are the type of person who plays World of Warcraft without damage meters and then doesn’t understand why people kick you from a raid. It’s perfectly fine when you’re levelling up as it’s not important, but as soon as it comes to endgame, people want to win. People want to down content and clear bosses, and if you’re in a pickup group and are not pumping out sufficient damage then it’s entirely your own fault for letting the group down, not damage meters. Damage meters are just a clear indication of what you are doing. This doesn’t go to say that they’re needed by everyone though, as a basic understanding of skill priorities, rotation and statistics negates the need and makes using them optional.

I’m sorry but you cannot base a bad experience on WoW and blame it on an addon, when it was you yourself not being able to lift your weight. As much as you want to play purely for fun, bringing horrible damage to a difficult group challenge will only frustrate other people, making the experience unpleasant for the others. Try some easier content next time.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

things that mods/addons do is that it is forcing people to actually install that "shit" if they dont want to have disadvantages against those who use it. and thats a terrible idea in my opinion.

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Could you provide us with an example of a mandatory addon to install on World of Warcraft? Addons for MMO’s are completely optional and the developers have the TOS to stop addons running the game for you. Whereas most people do enjoy the use of addons, I do know one person who played WoW without any addons, and he was the Main Tank in a high end raiding guild. Looking at the top 10 addons for WoW, Deadly Boss Mods is the ONLY addon that comes close to your description, and even then, DBM is not ‘cheating’, it simply tells you of what is already in the game and follows that up with warnings. It’s optional. If you don’t want to have warnings of abilities then don’t, but don’t drag down the top end hardcore gamers who want these types of addons because in your ‘opinion’ you disapprove.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

now then we have boss fights were everybody says "do not get 10 metre near the boss, otherwise you will get hit by an aeo attack" ... for me it is like making it far easier, in this case you cheat the game design, thats a fact.. because in the original version it is not visible to your character.

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This is NOT cheating. I don’t know how you can play a community game and not expect someone who has experience in the fights to tell you what’s going to happen. Nobody wants to wipe. You’re saying that you’d rather not have anybody tell you what the enemy does, so you can die and learn yourself? You’re playing a none-existent type of community game then. It’s understandable if the entire party has no idea and you all suffer from the same cause of damage, but it is not cheating for someone to give you tips on an encounter, ergo Deadly Boss Mods.

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Originally Posted by kazaran

Especially if you were not paying attention to the fight grabbed hate and whiped the party. Heavy DPS classes can do that easily. BLM's can grab hate in 2-3 casts. So it's tiem to back off.

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This is true, which is why it’s important to also have forms of threat meters too. What some people don’t seem to understand is that the intention of damage meters is not to ‘rush to #1 and be amazing, not caring if you’re standing in a fire or pulling hate’ but to be the most efficient you can in terms of maximum damage output whilst also maintaining a low-ish amount of hate generation.

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Originally Posted by kazaran

Other MMO battle system don't have such an easy hate grabbing ability.

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Back in vanilla WoW the hate generation of DPS characters was incredibly high, you had to wait around 10 seconds for a tank to get enough threat on a boss before anyone could start damaging, unless you were a class that was able to redirect hate through damage. At the same time, damage meters still existed and were still put to use from top end guilds.

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There are a lot of viable reasons why damage meters exist and why they are so useful. You are entitled to your own opinion, but don’t shove your own false information down other people’s throats because you choose to live a life of ignorance.

Um, I would like to see Linkshell related addons. o.o/

I would particularly like a calendar of events and Linkshell news, if that's not already part of the game client. I feel like Linkshells should be run from the game itself and not from a website (though websites can still be useful.)

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Originally Posted by Hulan

Is this confirmed? Or rather, can you link a source for this? If so, I am officially extremely excited. Scaleform is a substantially slower than Lua, but for UI development I'd much rather work in Flash than in Lua. Not to mention that as an API architecture, it's a much simpler environment to work in.

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It was mentioned very briefly in one of the French articles from Gamescom. Can't find the quote anymore though. But yeah looking at the addons available for RIFT gets me excited about what stuff we'll see in FFXIV 2.0.

Edit: Found it. Hmm doesn't outright confirm it but after looking at the presentation demo... when they were moving stuff around is the part where it looks the most like that platform. Btw it also pans out since in the BG interview when 2.0 was initially announced, Yoshi said that the UI will be flash-based. So it makes sense that they use this.

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l'interface utilisateur PC. Cette interface PC semble être faite avec Scaleform, un standard dans le genre qui a fait ses preuves (notamment sur Rift par exemple, ou Starwars : The Old republic).

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

Um, I would like to see Linkshell related addons. o.o/

I would particularly like a calendar of events and Linkshell news, if that's not already part of the game client. I feel like Linkshells should be run from the game itself and not from a website (though websites can still be useful.)

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This, so bad.

We are getting addons whether you whiners like it or not. Just don't use them if you aren't a fan.

/endthread

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Originally Posted by tou

We are getting addons whether you whiners like it or not. Just don't use them if you aren't a fan.

/endthread

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Best argument on the forums "don't like don't use it"

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Originally Posted by tou

We are getting addons whether you whiners like it or not. Just don't use them if you aren't a fan.

/endthread

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This pretty much. Even if they're not officially allowed, there's going to be user created add-ons; a-la ffxi windower.

I'm not sure how many ppl actually did a lot of end-game in ffxi, but nearly a year after windower's release it was common that linkshell leaders and many players used it for it's most simple functions.

Allowing user based add-ons and regulating a mod database creates a whole other community of fans that don't feel alienated by the company. Why SqEx wouldn't want to pull in and hold on to this community is beyond me, these are usually the more friendly and helpful players in the community as well.

Allowing addons does more than just not alienate people. It does SE's job for them.

UI's need to be updated along with the MMO, because regardless of how much new content you want to add to your game, it's still going to be and feel old if you don't keep the UI up to date.

When you allow addons, you crowdsource the most costly parts of updating the UI: the design, the testing, and researching what needs to be updated in the first place. All that the devs have to do is look at the most popular addons once in a while and implement them.

WOW did this, and it's why after 8 years, its UI is still the best UI available out of any MMO and an industry standard. No other MMO was able to hold the title for that long.

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Originally Posted by Hulan

Is this confirmed? Or rather, can you link a source for this? If so, I am officially extremely excited. Scaleform is a substantially slower than Lua, but for UI development I'd much rather work in Flash than in Lua. Not to mention that as an API architecture, it's a much simpler environment to work in.

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You just check the UI screenshot and video when Yoshida is playing around with UI element. Obviously scaleform. Exactly the same as in Rift.

XIV ARR:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LM6bi...utu.be&t=3m35s
http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/1838/reb11.jpg

Rift UI (Scaleform): http://imageshack.us/a/img42/8971/20120829214940.jpg

Apologies for previous lengthy post, anyway, back on topic, the addon's I'd like to see are:

Damage/Healing meters (if that wasn't already obvious lol)
Threat meter
UI skins (Default looks nice but after a while it's nice to be able to change)
Raid UI (similar to Grid)
Customizable cast bar
Chat addon (where I could change the font/have timestamps/have ability to copy&paste)

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Originally Posted by Antipika

You just check the UI screenshot and video when Yoshida is playing around with UI element. Obviously scaleform. Exactly the same as in Rift.

XIV ARR:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LM6bi...utu.be&t=3m35s
http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/1838/reb11.jpg

Rift UI (Scaleform): http://imageshack.us/a/img42/8971/20120829214940.jpg

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You can't really tell what middleware an API is using just by how it "looks". I could reproduce that UI in any number of environments with any number of APIs. Only way to know for sure is to see the documentation (or have them tell us). That being said, sounds like we are getting this in Scaleform, so... Yay.

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Originally Posted by Antipika

You just check the UI screenshot and video when Yoshida is playing around with UI element. Obviously scaleform. Exactly the same as in Rift.

XIV ARR:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LM6bi...utu.be&t=3m35s
http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/1838/reb11.jpg

Rift UI (Scaleform): http://imageshack.us/a/img42/8971/20120829214940.jpg

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You are making an assumption from two screenshots. There are WoW mods that use lua that look the same.

Then again I am on FFXIV General forums, where nothing but assumptions are made. I really shouldn't be surprised.

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Originally Posted by tou

You are making an assumption from two screenshots. There are WoW mods that use lua that look the same.

Then again I am on FFXIV General forums, where nothing but assumptions are made. I really shouldn't be surprised.

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I will just bump this again when we'll get confirmation and you'll see who is right :p Also for a MMO that will be on PS3, using scaleform makes sense as well.

(And these aren't mods so your statement isn't even related, that's native UI.)

Surprised I'm still the only one who has mentioned role-playing addons. >.>;;;;;;

I wonder if I can get a UI-Addon that shows me turn-by-turn directions to get to my destination?
(I get lost easily).

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Surprised I'm still the only one who has mentioned role-playing addons. >.>;;;;;;

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Well, cant say im that kind of "Roleplaying" person myself, but im sure something will
pop up once we get more clear overview of the addon/mod possibilities.

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Originally Posted by Asiaine

I wonder if I can get a UI-Addon that shows me turn-by-turn directions to get to my destination?
(I get lost easily).

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Im pretty sure that can be created.
Nice idea btw, no matter how small it is. ^.^)b

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Originally Posted by Asiaine

I wonder if I can get a UI-Addon that shows me turn-by-turn directions to get to my destination?
(I get lost easily).

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Just an add-on to add the letters E and W to the minimap would save me a lot of time. Whoever decided to leave that out in the original game should be hung, drawn and quartered!

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