Demiatma drop rates are unacceptable

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Originally Posted by george357

they need to stop necrobumping these topics its against the tos

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If a topic isnt posted to every 24-48 hours its necrobumping? - NOTED ;)

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Originally Posted by SeriousPan

Right there with you mate. This sucks. Mastered 7 jobs and still nothing.

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Do you even have the quest? No jokes.

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Originally Posted by IdleBlood

Do you even have the quest? No jokes.

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We're talking about the Berserker, Oracle & Ranger item drops from CEs. I already have my relic stuff done.

Confirmation from Live Letter that YoshiP thinks the drop rate is fine and won't be changing anything:

Quote from the "please increase the drop rate" segment of the live letter:
Y: I believe this is 100% personal bias
Y: We are not planning to nerf or buff the chances at this point
Y: I will tell you right now, CE is 20% drop rate
Y: FATEs in OC/outside OC are both 5%

He said it won't be like this in the future, but that he also isn't going to adjust it for this time round. Obviously there's no point, because people mostly already got their demiatma now. He also confirmed my speculated droprate for CEs, which are pretty good.

I hope it still takes equally as long next time tbh.

I see the actual problem completely flew over his head, he talked about how at length this would vary greatly between each player by the very nature of mathematical probabilities, and yet, we get this?

The step will get nerfed after the next or later parts of the relic just like atmas did in ARR.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

He said it won't be like this in the future, but that he also isn't going to adjust it for this time round. Obviously there's no point, because people mostly already got their demiatma now. He also confirmed my speculated droprate for CEs, which are pretty good.

I hope it still takes equally as long next time tbh.

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Because why? Wasting folks time is "fun."

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Originally Posted by DynnDiablos

Because why? Wasting folks time is "fun."

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A lot of people want their time wasted judging by the reaction to Endwalker relics.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

A lot of people want their time wasted judging by the reaction to Endwalker relics.

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Not necessarily. A vast amount of territory lies between 'too easy to obtain' and 'grind for hours on end without obtaining what you wanted'.

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

Not necessarily. A vast amount of territory lies between 'too easy to obtain' and 'grind for hours on end without obtaining what you wanted'.

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Hours is nothing though. If it's just 1 hour, then after 1 hour you are done. Then there's nothing to do. Then you unsubscribe. That was people's problem in Endwalker.

I think people are just impatient. The complaints about Atma have mostly vanished because people finished now.

I dont want a shiny weapon handed out just after a week, but I've seen enough suggestions and ideas to agree that there could be a better system than RNG grinding.
It's true, time/cost is an issue. But they're literally using RNG to pass time needed for development. Else, we'd see much more engaging relic quest designs.

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Originally Posted by Arongar

I've grinded for several relics in the past, and while there was a grind I never felt like I was truly wasting my time. It's different this time around. Maybe I just got lucky in the past.

I don't see a world where SE tested how it "Feels" to grind demiatma. I've spent roughly 7 hours grinding fates between zones and have gotten ZERO drops. My time is too valuable for this shit.

I don't expect everything to be "handed" to me, but I want my time to be valued. At this point there needs to be some sort of pity system. Maybe for every fate you do, and don't get a demiatma, increase the drop rate? I'm not sure what the best solution is, all I do know is...I'm skipping this relic. I was so excited for a new relic. To finally have a new chase in the game, but this is just awful. So disappointing. It's like SE has not learned anything in 10+ years of development. It's no wonder why players have been bailing on this game lately. Soon, I might be joining them.

I just don't feel like this game is for me anymore.

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If your time is too valuable you probably shouldn't be playing video games period.
This is just one step. You have months to do it still.
It's also a one-time step. It's just 1500 tomes for the weap and subsequent weapons after the demiatmas.
I got them passively just working on maxing out every phantom job in OC

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

I think people are just impatient. The complaints about Atma have mostly vanished because people finished now.

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Just checking in to say a week later and I still haven't found those last two atmas I need, still plugging in a few hours every day. There is also an alternative to things going quiet beyond "everyones finished". People got bored and gave up. I'm pretty close to it honestly. Fully expecting to be met with "Just unsub then!!" "nobodys forcing you!" or whatever other tired WoW Shadowlands style defense people like to use here now rather than addressing the fact that relying on RNG is unfun garbage.

IMHO the crux of the issue with this relic step are:

1. No bad luck protection - I'm sure everybody's familiar with this: play games with Lady Luck. There's nothing you can do about the outcome. She taketh, and She giveth. The end.
2. Zero thoughts given as to what the excessive gummies can be used for - Yes it's just one time. But multi purpose assets IMO are miles better than the ones made for singular, specific purposes. What if I get 10 of one kind and only 1 of the other just because Lady Luck says so? Just trash them? Ouch...

If I have the magick wand to 'fix' I'd at least give:

1. NPC to trade 5 unneeded demiatma for 1 that you need.
2. Keep the demiatmas dropping even after the quest is finished, because then the same NPC also gives options to trade a complete set of 1 demiatma for 1 Arcanite. Yay, suddenly it's not just 'oops all tomestone', and your excessive demiatma will have more use!

Oh yeah, fat wishes. I know, lol.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

IMHO the crux of the issue with this relic step are:

1. No bad luck protection - I'm sure everybody's familiar with this: play games with Lady Luck. There's nothing you can do about the outcome. She taketh, and She giveth. The end.
2. Zero thoughts given as to what the excessive gummies can be used for - Yes it's just one time. But multi purpose assets IMO are miles better than the ones made for singular, specific purposes. What if I get 10 of one kind and only 1 of the other just because Lady Luck says so? Just trash them? Ouch...

If I have the magick wand to 'fix' I'd at least give:

1. NPC to trade 5 unneeded demiatma for 1 that you need.
2. Keep the demiatmas dropping even after the quest is finished, because then the same NPC also gives options to trade a complete set of 1 demiatma for 1 Arcanite. Yay, suddenly it's not just 'oops all tomestone', and your excessive demiatma will have more use!

Oh yeah, fat wishes. I know, lol.

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Or even trade one set of demiatma for like 1000 silver coins or so

People don’t like RNG for an essential item but RNG for extra item on top of what you are already guaranteed is an upside with no downside

The drop rates are fine. They could fix it if multiple fates could spawn at the same time so you could prioritize going to zones that you need more for an even atma gathering rate. Like I got 8 oranges before I got my final one. It would also give players more agency so we're not mindlessly following the bot path. Which is literally all OC is.

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Originally Posted by YovelaLindswood

The drop rates are fine. They could fix it if multiple fates could spawn at the same time so you could prioritize going to zones that you need more for an even atma gathering rate. Like I got 8 oranges before I got my final one. It would also give players more agency so we're not mindlessly following the bot path. Which is literally all OC is.

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You can always go to the properly leveling zone of Dawntrail that you need. Each map is one different atma by doing fates, and also you will get gemstones or even leveling since you can be 90-100 and doesnt matter for getting atma. So is worth.

The best way to fix it would be to just have it be a 100% drop rate, make it so that there's only 1 type of Demiatma instead of 6 and increase the amount of them that you need.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

1. Zero thoughts given as to what the excessive gummies can be used for - Yes it's just one time. But multi purpose assets IMO are miles better than the ones made for singular, specific purposes. What if I get 10 of one kind and only 1 of the other just because Lady Luck says so? Just trash them? Ouch...

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No joke, I'm actually holding onto the additional candies I got. I'm too scared for the devs to pull another middlefinger and actually tell us next step that you can use them for whatever devilish thing they would come up with. The player outrage would be colossal, but I still don't trust them one bit.
And in the case they actually do listen to your ideas for exchanging them, which I do appreciate, then keeping my useless candies will be sound anyway.

The problem isn't exactly the drop rate so much as it is the fact that progress is completely at the mercy of RNG; which is going to run the gamut between "I got mine in a day or two" all the way through "cosmic plaything" ie: nothing drops for you, specifically. This does nothing but make it incredibly frustrating for the people stuck on the low-luck end and can even cause animosity.

Relic should have no business being obtained via what is essentially a glorified gacha; not because "low drop rates are bad," but that a "drop rate" shouldn't even be a factor at all for something tied to player progression. It's disgusting that two people can put in the same time and effort, and one can end up with even less than a third of the other's progress in the same time frame, purely because of luck. Leave that s*** to mounts, minions, lvl 1 glamour and furniture.

Saying "you have months to complete it, stop being impatient" is such a strawman argument when some fortunate people can get all of their demiatma in a couple days while it can take over a week for others with comparable playtimes. RNG grinds are the laziest grinds to implement, and doesn't even turn out to be a "grind" for luckier people. Same people also don't have to sit on their tomestones because they've already unlocked the ability to buy the Arcanite to save-up for their next relics by running their roulettes or even participating in South Horn's CEs, being allowed to kill several birds with one stone. Meanwhile, those with no such luck will likely sit @ their tomestone cap, waiting for RNG to decide when they can start utilizing them in the same way.

If everyone had to spend the same amount of time with the same effort for this progression weapon, I don't think the backlash would have been nearly this large. The RNG atma system should have died with ARR and HW; the fact that the devs made a joke about it in the cutscene showing our characters' exasperated reaction shows that they know the players did not like the system but are just too creatively bankrupt to come up with anything else and had to resort to this for retention. Let alone innovate on it even a little by giving a pity trade-in system to alleviate particularly bad RNG.

Naturally, they couldn't address that fact in the Live Letter, and had to hide behind a question asking to raise the drop-rate instead.

I know i'm late to respond to this, but they absolutely are not. It's a one time step and then tomes. It took me like 3 days of semi-hardcore play (we'll say 7 days of casual play) to get there. Frankly, they should have made the first step even harder than this.

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Originally Posted by Valence

No joke, I'm actually holding onto the additional candies I got. I'm too scared for the devs to pull another middlefinger and actually tell us next step that you can use them for whatever devilish thing they would come up with. The player outrage would be colossal, but I still don't trust them one bit.
And in the case they actually do listen to your ideas for exchanging them, which I do appreciate, then keeping my useless candies will be sound anyway.

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I only got extras in 2 colors, but like you, I’m holding onto them until this entire relic process is done just in case. Not that I really think they would repeat this step with the exact same drops; it would probably be some other annoying RNG drop crystal entirely. lol but who knows? Maybe we luck out and can trade them for some gold or silver someday…

https://files.catbox.moe/1w7lso.png

I finished my grind, with a total of 25 demiatma earned. According to the Occult Crescent achievements I did exactly 100 CEs and 175 Fates. Taking the stated rates of 20% for a CE and 5% for a Fate gives me an expected value of 28.75 Demiatma, so I was actually slightly unlucky.
As a one-time grind it was excellent, I think the devs tuned it perfectly. I'm very very glad to not have the lazy tomestone relics of Endwalker. I have plenty of complaints about the current direction of the game, but they did really well here.

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Originally Posted by Altina_Orion

I know i'm late to respond to this, but they absolutely are not. It's a one time step and then tomes. It took me like 3 days of semi-hardcore play (we'll say 7 days of casual play) to get there. Frankly, they should have made the first step even harder than this.

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Lucky for you. Meanwhile I am sitting on 10+ materia for all but the SW corner, of which I have a whopping 0 demimateria. Went to farm outside the zone, 3 days of farming fates annnnnd still 0.

Should have been just 18 demimateria, the 6 different colors from very varying locations with no conversion method was a trash idea.

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Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia

Lucky for you. Meanwhile I am sitting on 10+ materia for all but the SW corner, of which I have a whopping 0 demimateria. Went to farm outside the zone, 3 days of farming fates annnnnd still 0.

Should have been just 18 demimateria, the 6 different colors from very varying locations with no conversion method was a trash idea.

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My idea was to have two fates spawn instead of the boring one fate train. That way you could divert to the areas you needed to maximize your chances of getting your lowest ones up to the rest. Also it would give some much needed player agency to the content.

Well they gave the official response in the latest live letter of them thinking the drop rates are fine as is and wont change them as a result.

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Originally Posted by Valence

No joke, I'm actually holding onto the additional candies I got. I'm too scared for the devs to pull another middlefinger and actually tell us next step that you can use them for whatever devilish thing they would come up with. The player outrage would be colossal, but I still don't trust them one bit.
And in the case they actually do listen to your ideas for exchanging them, which I do appreciate, then keeping my useless candies will be sound anyway.

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I'd say your concerns are justified to be honest - this image from the Live Letter livestream doesn't fill me with confidence in that respect!
https://i.imgur.com/pjswHRP.png

Low drop rates are just a "feature" deal with it!

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Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia

Lucky for you. Meanwhile I am sitting on 10+ materia for all but the SW corner, of which I have a whopping 0 demimateria. Went to farm outside the zone, 3 days of farming fates annnnnd still 0.

Should have been just 18 demimateria, the 6 different colors from very varying locations with no conversion method was a trash idea.

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I don't believe that. at a 5% drop rate, you should get it within 120 for one type of materia, which would take a few hours for sure. If you have zero, you haven't worked for 3 days unless you are doing like 30 minute days.

I don't like RNG grinding in any MMO.

This one wasn't BAD. but like...

Man can't you just like have me grind 999 of something? Ya know lol

For me grinding is fun when I'm building towards something and I can see the progress.
When it's RNG, you can enter into these states of frustration because you're no longer seeing any visible progress. You're going fate to fate, CE to CE and nothing for hours.

I know for my last Demiatma I as stuck getting the Verdigris one. I was definitely crashing out at the end.

Ask for the phantom jobs.

I do think that there should be some form of pity system for those.

Either a Job soul fragment where 10 times and you can make a Soul Shard?

OR

If you max out allllll the other jobs they are automatic upon completing the CE. I think that's fair and fun gameplay.

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Originally Posted by NaoSen

Well they gave the official response in the latest live letter of them thinking the drop rates are fine as is and wont change them as a result.

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They sure do love their pachinkos over there

I've almost finished getting the phantom jobs finished in mastery. I still don't have the freaking Berserker or Ranger jobs unlocked. I've done the CEs countless times and received nothing. I shouldn't get near 100% completion on levelling and not have the jobs drop. At that point the drop rate is unacceptable for me. I swear they adjust RNG on an account basis and some accounts just have worse RNG than others to try and keep content relevant and have certain players always grinding so they can keep the numbers up.

That's how desperate I've gotten. Tinfoil hat theories on why I don't have the stuff I need.

I do think the 3 soul shards should have bad luck protection

If you have 9 stacks of mastery and somehow still have none of the soul shards then they should guarantee a drop of the next soul shards CE because that’s a case of your phantom experience being actively wasted because you can’t spend it on anything

I can’t imagine having that bad luck though, I’m hoarding like 25 ranger souls in my inventory hoping square will up the turn in rate

I do wonder how many relevant CEs for the soul shards people are actually completing. I would suspect, not that many relative to the other CEs. I would then ask the question, are you actively trying to spawn the relevant CEs?

Oracle was my last soul shard I needed and it just would not drop, not that that CE spawned often. So, what did I do? I actively went after fans between CEs rather than going after FATEs to try and spawn the CE more often. Everything considered, it really hasn't taken that many of the relevant CEs to get the soul shard drops, at least in my experience.

It is all well and good saying you have spent so much time in OC that you have almost maxed out all your other jobs, but how many times have you actually had the chance for that soul shard to drop. That is what matters.

Low drop rates are totally fine if the content is engaging, has the ability for player driven content to make things feel fresh, and allows you to work on multiple things at once. I've done relics for every expansion except ARR (just havent finished it) and this one somehow feels worse than Endwalkers. At least with EW we all knew it was just a tombstone weapon, and it didn't waste our time. This one is actually just annoying. OC has no relevance to character growth because you can literally do the relic outside of it. And on that note, I've done so many hours of CE's and there is no way in hell that drop rate is 20%. No shot.

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Originally Posted by Ephremjlm

Low drop rates are totally fine if the content is engaging, has the ability for player driven content to make things feel fresh, and allows you to work on multiple things at once. I've done relics for every expansion except ARR (just havent finished it) and this one somehow feels worse than Endwalkers. At least with EW we all knew it was just a tombstone weapon, and it didn't waste our time. This one is actually just annoying. OC has no relevance to character growth because you can literally do the relic outside of it. And on that note, I've done so many hours of CE's and there is no way in hell that drop rate is 20%. No shot.

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I suspect for stage 2 of the relic you will probably need to have reached level 20 in zone before you can unlock the quest. Time will tell but it wouldn't surprise me.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

I suspect for stage 2 of the relic you will probably need to have reached level 20 in zone before you can unlock the quest. Time will tell but it wouldn't surprise me.

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Yep probably some arbitrary roadblock that you can clearly tell will have zero thought put in as to "why" other than "we need to make this zone relevant".

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

It is all well and good saying you have spent so much time in OC that you have almost maxed out all your other jobs, but how many times have you actually had the chance for that soul shard to drop. That is what matters.

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I was making an effort to spawn the Berserker by killing the Demon Pawns until it was discovered that he's an automatic spawn and not forced by mob kills. I feel like I've made a fair attempt to earn it before the community discovered it wasn't a forced spawn and I've fought the fella so many times I see him in my sleep. So now I've been farming Panthers instead. I wouldn't be complaining if I didn't make a concentrated effort to get what I want.

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Originally Posted by Altina_Orion

I don't believe that. at a 5% drop rate, you should get it within 120 for one type of materia, which would take a few hours for sure. If you have zero, you haven't worked for 3 days unless you are doing like 30 minute days.

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Yeah, cause RNG can't do RNG things and just suck somtimes lol. Just because there are averages doesn't mean diddly since outliers can and do exist. Having a failsafe due to such outliers should be taken into consideration.