The Negative Impact of Poor Character Writing on the Quality of Dawntrail's MSQ

First I wanted to say, thank you for this post! This is my first post on the ff forums as well but I thought I had to say something in response ^^ I've just recently finished Dawntrail (a week ago exactly, in fact) and did my best to avoid any opinions & takes on it whether it be from twitter, reddit, shout chat(LOL) or anywhere else because I wanted to form my own opinion of the expansion going in. A lot of what managed to leak through that I did see were the "arguments" that you addressed at the start that were kind of just not really going anywhere in their discussion of the expansion, so I didnt really pay them any mind. I'm glad you highlighted that haha. That being said, having finished it I've been rotating Dawntrail in my head ever since trying to properly articulate to myself what I liked about it, what I thought it did well, and what I thought it completely dropped the ball on. I don't really have much to say on your point regarding the characterisation of the Scions or Wuk Lamat throughout the expansion other than that I agree with some parts, and disagree with others, but thats not really what I want to get at. While I did like that the Scions had kind of stepped back to take a more supporting role after how much spotlight they got in Endwalker (with the exception of Y'shtola which... I just won't get into that lest I get sidetracked), it did kind of feel like they had stopped being individual characters especially nearing the end.

What I actually want to talk about the most in response is your mentioning the tried and true method of writing a good story: showing and not telling, because to me what really started to just lose me in Dawntrail was the way certain moments in the expansion that were supposed to be emotional just kind of fell flat to me. Either that or I just simply didn't care. This is mostly in regards to the latter half, say around where the Rite of Succession concludes. I can think of two specific moments in Dawntrail where the writing does an excellent job of being not only more interesting, but also very expertly shows the audience over just flat out saying it. One of these moments is one you mentioned already with G'raha in the gondola. Admittedly I was a bit weary after Endwalker that he was just going to say another platitude about how happy he is to be on an adventure with WOL, and I was also a bit annoyed that he was about to get a standout scene where I thought Erenville was being tossed to the wayside to angst, but it ended up being possibly one of the most important scenes in the expansion to me. But you already said why this is so, so I won't rehash your points...! It was a very good way to develop his character, something they are clearly struggling to do with the Scions with them having been along for so long, which just makes me wonder why its so hard for them to do this. Y'shtola has literally become less of a character and more of a means to just get anything having to do with reflections accomplished OFFSCREEN... it makes no sense.

(continuing in next post bc character limit lol)

The other scene is the one where Krile's mother hands her over to Galuf. The irony of this being a good SHOW moment is that there is almost little to no dialogue, but you can immediately tell what is happening, that there's something wrong with the world they're coming from, their love for Krile, their hopes that by taking the chance on giving their baby to a complete stranger they can protect her from whatever it is they're running from, even the last moments where Krile's mother turns around to look at her one last time with tears in her eyes, I thought that scene was done INCREDIBLY WELL. It honestly stunned me. I dont know if others felt this way about it haha, but it really was one of the standout scenes in DT to me. It's a shame to me that in contrast, writing for Erenville's relationship with his mother is done so poorly. All we know about Erenville's mother at the start from NPCs like blue haired viera or Gulool Ja Ja or I guess Erenville himself just saying this is that Erenville used to get left behind while she ran off on adventures, and that she tasked him with finding the golden city while he was a kid. That's pretty much it? It gave me the impression his mother was kind of negligent, &I was curious to see what Erenville's thoughts on his mother were, if he resented her, or how he felt giving up on this incredible task he'd been given (and we never actually know what lengths he went to to even find it, it's just told to us that he tried and failed). I dont even know why he even cares about the golden city beyond it being like "his mother told him to find it" so whenever he mentioned it I didnt believe he actually cared. Then we get to Xak Tural, and inexplicably Erenville is punished by the narrative until the credits roll. His hometown, which I would've loved to see & have him show me around with a "This NPC Is Now Accompanying You" quest is ruined. His mother is turned into this...robot thing I can only assume is for merchandising purposes, then its revealed she's been dead all along & he has to be the one to kill her. With Krile, I felt like this was a justifiable way to end her meeting her parents, with Erenville it just felt cruel and unnecessary. There's no actual moments where we get a sense of Cahciua's relationship with Erenville (beyond being his mother and calling him her fuzzy little bun bun), and there's no apology for things I think justifiably should've made him angry at her. Erenville talks about his mother's blase attitude towards her upcoming deletion tearing him apart, but that's it, like we barely get to go around Living Memory with him or see anything relating to his past with her, he just tells us that he's sad about it and that's it. And then we ride capybaras in the sky, and I'm supposed to believe that this is a better adventure than travelling around Tural with the likes of GULOOL JA JA? JUST BECAUSE HER SON IS THERE? THE SON SHE WAS ALWAYS LEAVING BEHIND???? Please be forreal.

I've only just gotten to Solution Nine, so I haven't read all the posts to avoid spoilers, but the section in Solution Nine was so incredibly awful, I just had to write this out before I go insane.

Never in my life have I seen an RPG fail at being an RPG through bad writing alone.

Sphene invited Wuk Lamat for a tour of Solution Nine, that's great, but... why on Hydaelyn's Star was the WoL going with them? During the entire tour, Sphene and Wuk Lamat practically flirted with each other, and occasionally talk AT you for a line or two. You're forced to being the 3rd wheel on this date and it's the most awkward thing in the world. The most insulting section was the "escort mission" where they talked to each other at every stop, with the WoL acting as a taximan getting them to places on their date.

So why was WoL there at all? So that the game can exposition at YOU, the player. That realization followed immediately by another one: YOU, at this time, are not a Player; the YOU on the screen that is supposed to be your Avatar, is not YOU; That avatar is simply a glorified Cameraman, and YOU, you are simply part of the Audience.

Never before in my life have I seen a "Role Playing" Game actively dissociate me from the character I play as. And I've played a LOT of RPGs, JRPGs especially, I'm a huge weeb. I can go along with almost any hare-brained plot in most games, the suspension of disbelief usually isn't an issue for me at all, and yet, here is where it failed. It not only soured Dawntrail for me, but realizing this has kind of made everything soured as well. This whole time, that character you've been pouring your time and effort into making your own? That's the studio's cameraman, you're just here to watch a movie, but thanks for taking care of the staff, I guess.

To be fair, all characters are essentially just the cameraman for the game studio to tell you a story, but it's always masked very well. The character you play as usually have an actually good reason to be there, so while "Role Playing" as them, you typically won't notice the issue. I'm no writer and didn't go to any writing school, the most I've gotten to writing is a DnD campaign I run for my friends, but isn't this one of the worst things you can ever do in a game? If this was a DnD Campaign, this whole section is like the DM forcing the players to come watch them role play as the DMPC (with massive main character syndrome) flirting with a new NPC, and the party's not allowed to progress the story unless you sit down and watch it all. It's the kind of thing that horrible DMs do to players, and hey SE, if you're listening, this kind of thing is usually what drives players to quit the table. The advice usually given to this type of DM, I feel is appropriate here as well: "Please, for the love of God, just write a book."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ggreeencake

The other scene is the one where Krile's mother hands her over to Galuf. The irony of this being a good SHOW moment is that there is almost little to no dialogue, but you can immediately tell what is happening, that there's something wrong with the world they're coming from, their love for Krile, their hopes that by taking the chance on giving their baby to a complete stranger they can protect her from whatever it is they're running from, even the last moments where Krile's mother turns around to look at her one last time with tears in her eyes, I thought that scene was done INCREDIBLY WELL. It honestly stunned me.

---

Ok agreed 100%, you actually reminded me of one of the few things in the msq that I actually really liked. Loved the silence when she was speaking, the whole thing kind of gave me goosebumps. Excellent scene

Wuk Lamat, over the course of this expansion, where 98% of the main scenario quests involve you interacting with her in some way, has managed to become my least favorite and most hated video game character of all time. And it has absolutely nothing to do with the VA since I turned off the voice acting after the first five words during EW.

Before this I have never understood how people can viscerally hate characters but oh boy they certainly managed to teach me with this stupid cat.

My character has had no agency for this entire story. This is not The Warrior of Light coaches a young hero, this is Wuk Lamat And Her Special Guest The Former Warrior of Light.

I do not, EVER want to interact with this stupid cat ever again. I want her to vanish into the Dawnservant palace never to be seen again while I'm still in Tural.

I was promised a vacation Road Trip with the homies. I was LIED TO. How in the actual fuck this got the green light is beyond me. How the fuck did Ishikawa not read this and go "Yo, hol up." How did Yoshi-P not read this and go "YO, HOL UP."

This is, by far, the worst expac the game has ever had, and that includes 1.0.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ReynTime

Dawntrail might as well be evidence that they don't know what to do with the Scions anymore. Especially those with their personal arcs resolved (Thancred, Urianger, Alphinaud, arguably Estinien)

Even disregarding the poor characterization direction in Dawntrail as a whole Urianger, for example, is completely off-character taking some mercenary job just because Thancred invited him. Nothing in how he was written as a character since his introduction in 1.X made him come across as someone who'd take the job as someone's bodyguard just for sake of it.

---

I'm very much in the camp of "Not retiring the scions as main characters after Endwalker was a mistake." To paraphrase Tolkien "Bilbo's part in the story was over, there'd be no more adventures for him. Save one."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iskra

Ok agreed 100%, you actually reminded me of one of the few things in the msq that I actually really liked. Loved the silence when she was speaking, the whole thing kind of gave me goosebumps. Excellent scene

---

Not to be dramatic but this scene genuinely made me cry LOOOL! A shame the rest of the expansion didn't have many moments like that (and I'm saying this as someone that again, generally enjoyed Dawntrail overall). U__U

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by xirune

You know, I hadn't actually thought about this before, but it's such a good point!! Dawntrail's writing is so obsessed with telling you exactly what to think and feel every few minutes and simply treating the characters like mouthpieces, that one of the only actually good and impactful scenes is because there is no dialogue, so those problems by the nature of the scene can't be present.

---

Right?! like if you think about it, had that scene gone in such a way where like, Krile's mother started talking to Galuf like "I want you to take my daughter and raise her as your own our world is in peril etc. etc." it would've been no where near as strong a scene... and yet for some reason a majority of the expansion is written that way TT__TT it makes no sense to me...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ggreeencake

Right?! like if you think about it, had that scene gone in such a way where like, Krile's mother started talking to Galuf like "I want you to take my daughter and raise her as your own our world is in peril etc. etc." it would've been no where near as strong a scene... and yet for some reason a majority of the expansion is written that way TT__TT it makes no sense to me...

---

I'm convinced there are scenes like that and the gondola ride that were handed off to an entirely different writer. That or he's actually a decent writer if they'd manage to kill their darlings, since neither involve Wuk Lamat in any way.

Like when he turns in his first draft, the director should look at whichever character has the most lines in the story and tell them, "okay, good, now rewrite it but without this character."

Hard agree with most everyone here in this thread. DT was insanely lack luster to me and I was very disappointed with the story. I started skipping cutscenes every time it was just Wuk Lamat blabbering on and on. I really wish I could have picked who my WOL backed because it for sure was not going to be Wuk. I would have loved actually going up against Koana, Urianger and Thancred in a battle like it was implied before you even left for Tural. Both Thancred and Urianger saying they won't hold back against the WOL made me excited that we could get to fight them but the most we got was Thancred blocking the path in a dungeon :/

I was disappointed as hell with Krile and Erenville's "story" or rather complete lack of. I had gotten the impression from the trailer that they would be way more involved than they were and alas, as many said, they were just side lined till the very last area. I remember completing their sections and sitting there like "that's it? That's all we get for them????"

The areas are gorgeous, dungeons were fun and challenging, the new gear is awesome and lord almighty I want to live in Solution 9 so bad. Overall DT was very meh to me. The more Wuk showed up on screen, the more annoyed I became. I had taken time off work and my coworker asked me how I'd enjoyed the game. It was almost embarrassing to say that I *did not* enjoy it like I had with SHB or EW.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

That scene with Footfalls just made me immediately want to replay EW rather than continue DT. And we were in the middle of one of the biggest budget scenes in the whole expansion.

---

All I could think when watching that scene was "Man, this is kinda lame."
Like, did the people who animated Omega VS Shinryu in Stormblood get fired? Die of old age? That cutscene, made seven? years ago, was four whole minutes of PEAK. Compare that to Vritra shooting the same fireball 5 times, flailing in the air, then flying in a circle and roaring (Couldnt find a video link for the DT one, its "The Protector and The Destroyer" cutscene 3 in the unending journey).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seiki_Kisaki

I've only just gotten to Solution Nine, so I haven't read all the posts to avoid spoilers, but the section in Solution Nine was so incredibly awful, I just had to write this out before I go insane.

Never in my life have I seen an RPG fail at being an RPG through bad writing alone.

---

(Snip for length)
Not only do I agree with everything, but this was also the exact moment I snapped for real and stopped caring. I started out positive, that moved to patient/optimistic if not thrilled anymore, got disgruntled ca. early into the 3rd zone and as my hopes that it was going to get better dwindled, I saw more and more negatives, and my friend had to sit through my liveblogging snark on how bad this all was.
Solution 9 was where I had enough for good. I kept playing, to finish it once, but I started speeding through irrelevant dialogues, skipping certain cutscenes, and actively wanted it all to end.

After 8 years of subscription (approaching 3000 days!), this expansion has finally made me actually activate my forum account just so I can add one more voice agreeing in what an absolute shitshow the MSQ was.

There's nothing really new for me to add that hasn't already been said, but for the first time in the near decade of playing, I'm debating cancelling my subscription. My wife and I have been playing together since SB, and debating the story at length has always been one of our simple pleasures in life. There are plenty of things we have agreed and disagreed upon, but there is one thing that Dawntrail has achieved that no other expansion has been able to, and that is to bring us both to absolute alignment on how bad it was. I'd be impressed if it wasn't so damn depressing.

We have at least been enjoying the expert dungeons and spamming the extremes, but if the storytelling continues in the same mediocre direction, then perhaps it's a sign that we're finally approaching the end of our respective WoL journeys.

Yep, know the feeling, and I'm still debating myself; it really is impressive how fast it managed that with a story that is just so very offensive it cancels out a lot of the other goodwill.
I've still got some virtual bux left over because I didn't seriously expect to quit right after the new expansion hit (joke's on me), so I'm using that up, currently doing some solitary messing around without unwanted feline company, testing out the new classes (Picto is actually really damn fine, pity it arrived so late), catching up on some side stuff on the character, who was intended to be an alt but got promoted to main-and-only purely because I cannot possibly find it within myself to play through that MSQ again, and I'm seeing over time if there's enough fun to be had still despite this, and maybe if they course-correct fast, or if it's more of the same. In the latter case... Well, it's been nice.

It is very much spot on Story writing the thing is it hits parts of the world hard on reality, which is why people think it is bad and most of all that it does not take them away from the reality they are trying to escape.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Themarvin

It is very much spot on Story writing the thing is it hits parts of the world hard on reality, which is why people think it is bad and most of all that it does not take them away from the reality they are trying to escape.

---

There are people in this thread pointing out how Erenville's grief was not depicted realistically enough because the story trampled all over his realistic and legitimate feelings and the narrative's moralising about how he should just move on didn't represent losing a parent realistically and true to the real world. Or how Wuk's reaction to being adopted and meeting her birthfather had little to do with how real-life people in that situation would have reacted. So I have this suspicious feeling you might not be right about people just being displeased "because it doesn't take them far enough from the reality they want to escape". Instead, they are probably displeased because the writing is just that bad.

Yeah, if anything it wasn't real enough for me. I wanted them to delve into the details. People in Solution 9 have their memories of others who've died on the regular? Logically that means there's plenty of people in Solution 9 who one day wake up in a double bed, two closets with two peoples' clothes in them. They never remember living with anyone. The existential dread that it puts in me to think that someone I was once so close to could up and vanish and I wouldn't even remember them is terrifying. But the citizens of Solution 9 are vibing, the dead are "in the cloud" so it's whatever. In some of the side quests you get a taste of that horror, and it's so good, but the MSQ doesn't deliver it. I want the citizens of Solution 9 to be putting on a brave face as they all deal with the gnawing sense of something being missing. I want people to treat Erenville's grief with more than just a vague "cowabummer" before chiding him for being dour and withdrawn while the AI ghost of his mother rubs salt in the wounds. I want it to feel real, despite the fantasy. Amaurot hit hard as a fantastical display of magical might, but more importantly, as a monument to one man's grief that he has failed to move past despite literal eons of time. Being too real is certainly not my criticism at any rate.

It's really jarring because the rest of DT is filled with themes about family and siblings and so forth yet Solution 9 is an absolute about face where you never remember your parents but it just whiplashes into it and never addresses it, what's more Wookie Lmao and the Scions seem pretty chill with this nightmare whereas in other timelines Alphinaud would be leading a revolution to topple Sphene.

There's this side quest in the theme park portion of Living Memory that's about a little boy that's looking for his brother. I recommend doing it if you haven't, but I'm going to explain how it ends below.

Living Memory returned him to being a child because that's when he was happiest, playing with his little brother, but once he he comes to the realization that he can't find his brother because his brother didn't get on the last train out of Shaaloani before Heritage Found appeared, and he immediately becomes an elderly man, wistfully recalling working on the railroad with his brother and much of the rest of his life, and in the gap of his memories left by the machine, he chooses to find joy in knowing that his brother barely knows that he is gone yet and has his whole life in front of him. It's so tragic I'm getting choked up recalling it now, and thinking about my own brothers.

Yeah. I cried a lot in Living Memory, so very clearly the zone and all its implications impacted me, but it was NOT from the MSQ characters or the dialogue or any of that. It was just the setting, visual storytelling, musical direction, and having a bit of my own personal experiences to draw upon and empathize with. And the nagging sense of a huge, HUGE opportunity wasted... Hopefully they'll do better going forwards.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eskat

Yeah, if anything it wasn't real enough for me. I wanted them to delve into the details. People in Solution 9 have their memories of others who've died on the regular? Logically that means there's plenty of people in Solution 9 who one day wake up in a double bed, two closets with two peoples' clothes in them. They never remember living with anyone. The existential dread that it puts in me to think that someone I was once so close to could up and vanish and I wouldn't even remember them is terrifying. But the citizens of Solution 9 are vibing, the dead are "in the cloud" so it's whatever. In some of the side quests you get a taste of that horror, and it's so good, but the MSQ doesn't deliver it. I want the citizens of Solution 9 to be putting on a brave face as they all deal with the gnawing sense of something being missing. I want people to treat Erenville's grief with more than just a vague "cowabummer" before chiding him for being dour and withdrawn while the AI ghost of his mother rubs salt in the wounds. I want it to feel real, despite the fantasy. Amaurot hit hard as a fantastical display of magical might, but more importantly, as a monument to one man's grief that he has failed to move past despite literal eons of time. Being too real is certainly not my criticism at any rate.

---

Spot on. All the implications and logical consequences of deleting memories of a dead person were glossed over in the MSQ and most people don't even do the (non-blue) side quests.

(There is one with a grieving viera withouth a regulator whose friend has died and who asks you to organise a proper send-off with him.)

The fact that not remembering somebody was just so normal and fine by everyone, because apparently the majority of people found no fault with the "remembering the dead is painful, hence bad! Please remove anything unpleasant, eww!" philosophy was so weird considering you also lose all of your happy memories with them.

What if your wedding or the birth of your child or a special day with your parents, your friends, your siblings etc. was the happiest moment in your life? It would be gone (as long as you are still alive and not in Living Memory yourself).

And yeah, as you mentioned, just on a logistical level, forgetting people creates big logical problems and consistency gaps in a society (like the partner of a deceased person waking up in a home for two).
But also, a person being associated with just anything important (a task, a job, an important event etc.) would be deleted from the public memory. Wouldn't these memory gaps cause confusions or (administrative) problems?

In addition, even if you do not wear a regulator, seeing everybody else forget a person instantly while you don't must be so painful and isolating. You have nobody to talk to, nobody to share your grief with.
If you met another person who loved the one that died as much as you but wouldn't be able to share this memory with you...it must cause so much cognitive exhaustion and pain.
Perhaps this constant tension of being the only person that remembers somebody and thus having the loss of the person being rubbed in even more - or being the only sad person in a sea of happy people who don't get why you are grieving and who might even be irritated by it (since everybody is supposed to be happy) - might create a lot of (peer) pressure to give in and also use a regulator.

And lastly, it is also a dilemma for people who don't want to have their memories altered but want to use souls because the way I understand it those things can't be separated?

So if you want to have this life insurance but don't want to forget people this will put you in a tough spot. You might say "well just live responsibly, just like normal people do" (which I agree with btw) but it might lock you out of social opportunities like certain jobs. Though, what's worse in my opinion, imagine you are somebody who does not use a regulator and you then observe other people actually make that decision to wear one, essentially showcasing that their own life insurance is more important to them than remembering the people they love. Some people may see no issue with it and hold the position that your own survival comes first. But if you are a loved one, a child, a parent, a partner, without a regulator and you see the people close to you opt for one, the knowledge that they will forget you if you die before them and that this is a price they are prepared to pay can still mess you up.

I really can't believe they actually ran with the whole removing memories of the people who die. Society just wouldn't function normally. They showed Namikka's death in a very controlled manner, but in reality there would be many people dying unexpectedly in various different ways. Can you imagine random senior citizens who perished alone being found by people and nobody knowing who the hell they were? What about those patrolling out in Heritage Found? If they ran out of souls in their regulators and were killed, nobody would remember about them going out for patrol. There could be dozens of random dead bodies out in the wilds with nobody the wiser. What about a surgeon operating on someone who's out of extra souls? If they die on the operating table the surgeon would suddenly blink, staring at a random dead body, blood all over their hands, and be like 'What the hell, who is this? What have I done?' There's almost an infinite number of scenarios where suddenly forgetting someone's existence would lead to dozens if not hundreds of confused people wandering around every single day.

Apparently the writers think that removing memories of dead people is enough to keep people endlessly happy, nevermind that people are constantly being traumatised by stumbling upon dead bodies that nobody recognises or why they're there in the first place. The whole concept really doesn't stand up to even any kind of shallow scrutiny.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Loggos

The fact that not remembering somebody was just so normal and fine by everyone, because apparently the majority of people found no fault with the "remembering the dead is painful, hence bad! Please remove anything unpleasant, eww!" philosophy was so weird considering you also lose all of your happy memories with them.

---

I didn't do sidequests there yet. But from the get go my suspicion was that it's not just the "offending" memory being removed. But also "positive thoughts" put in. And we know it can be done, because Sphene is changing her own "programming".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Regis_Paran

I didn't do sidequests there yet. But from the get go my suspicion was that it's not just the "offending" memory being removed. But also "positive thoughts" put in. And we know it can be done, because Sphene is changing her own "programming".

---

The way I understood it the person is just removed from your memory completely.

For example, in the MSQ we observe how Erenville meets some people from his former village. They all recognise him but they have no idea who his mother even is, although they did know her for sure in the past. Erenville says so himself because he cannot believe how they could have possibly forgotten her.

And in one of the side quests

the aforementioned viera tells you how, when his friend died, all the other friends of said deceased person have already forgotten them. So those friends' minds weren'd fed any positive replacement memories as far as I understand.

(Also, this is another point that I find quite unsettling. Imagine you have a close friend, their parent dies, and you just don't remember your friend's parent all of a sudden. You know this person but where they come from and how they grew up is (partially) purged from your mind. And if you are a close friend then their growing up was most likely also a part of your growing up since you spent time with them in your childhood. So in some way parts of your own childhood (even if it's just tangential memories) would also be gone. Such as spending time at your child friend's house but in your memory there is absolutely no presence of their parent in that house.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Loggos

(Also, this is another point that I find quite unsettling. Imagine you have a close friend, their parent dies, and you just don't remember your friend's parent all of a sudden. You know this person but where they come from and how they grew up is (partially) purged from your mind. And if you are a close friend then their growing up was most likely also a part of your growing up since you spent time with them in your childhood. So in some way parts of your own childhood (even if it's just tangential memories) would also be gone. Such as spending time at your child friend's house but in your memory there is absolutely no presence of their parent in that house.)

---

Oh that's honestly so full of potential. Imagine a friend group just fracturing in the wake of a death. All of them would hang out together often, forming countless fond memories together, only for all of those to get scourged from their minds, rendering not only their lost friend forgotten, but also gutting so much of the friendship with everyone who remained, taking them from the closest of friends to being acquaintances who they remember little about.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Loggos

The way I understood it the person is just removed from your memory completely. (snip)

(Also, this is another point that I find quite unsettling. Imagine you have a close friend, their parent dies, and you just don't remember your friend's parent all of a sudden. You know this person but where they come from and how they grew up is (partially) purged from your mind. And if you are a close friend then their growing up was most likely also a part of your growing up since you spent time with them in your childhood. So in some way parts of your own childhood (even if it's just tangential memories) would also be gone. Such as spending time at your child friend's house but in your memory there is absolutely no presence of their parent in that house.)

---

I agree completely. That's why originally I didn't accept the "we only remove memory of that one person" explanation . Because 10 seconds of logical thinking finds gaping holes in that. That's why I suspected a second layer to the memory manipulation.. But there was none.

This whole idea should have unsettled me. But it didn't because I couldn't look beyond the horrendous writing of the entire premise.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Regis_Paran

This whole idea should have unsettled me. But it didn't because I couldn't look beyond the horrendous writing of the entire premise.

---

Yeah I feel this so much, haha!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eskat

Oh that's honestly so full of potential. Imagine a friend group just fracturing in the wake of a death. All of them would hang out together often, forming countless fond memories together, only for all of those to get scourged from their minds, rendering not only their lost friend forgotten, but also gutting so much of the friendship with everyone who remained, taking them from the closest of friends to being acquaintances who they remember little about.

---

Oh yeah, that is a really good point! I wonder if all memories the dead person was part of are deleted altogether or if it is just the existence of the person within that memory.

So if you have a friend group and they had an experience together, would that entire experience be removed because the dead person was part of that experience? Causing you to lose many important memories of living people and related events as well only because they are in some way connected to the dead person?

Would the memories themselves remain but there would be a blank space where the dead person used to be, so you know there was "someone" but you just can't remember them for the life of you?

Or do you remember an altered version of the memory without any blank space? And in your mind your friend group always just consisted of the people still alive? So said experience would be remembered as something only the remaining living friends did with you and it's as if the dead person just had never existed?

Never before have I walked away from an expansion's story with my thoughts on it being "well, that was stupid." It all just feels so... superficial and unsatisfying. The characters, the plot, the conflicts; the entire thing had this pervasive feeling of everything being a little off, and it doesn't even bother to answer most of the massive questions it raises.

I don't really have a lot to add since OP explained things very well, but my biggest concern is this:

How and why did they create an expansion that rivals base Endwalker in length (which was longer than normal so that they could fully wrap it up and focus on something else in patch quests) with nearly double the cutscene runtime as Stormblood and still not manage to address all of their plot points?

Something has gone very wrong in the writing team and I don't think it can all be blamed on Ishikawa's absence.

Well... truthfully I'm at a loss for words. I'm sitting here at my computer wanting to express just how much I disliked the MSQ and I find myself speechless. I had no expectations and yet Dawntrail still failed to meet them. I am absolutely not canonizing Dawntrail in my WoL's story. I'm sorry to be so harsh, but it's actually offensive and insulting to me and my character's intelligence. :(

The story is awful. The characters are cardboard cutouts. I didn't mind Wuk Lamat at first but then she became the worst character in the game, easily. Do the writers think we're 10 year olds? It's baffling how this happened after coming off of deep and mature expansions like ShB and EW. There's no nuance to the story. No one acts like humans. Seriously, everyone got lobotomized. I don't have a problem with low stakes; I read contemporary fiction and there's no cosmic world ending threats in contemporary fiction. I don't have a problem with the WoL becoming a mentor character; after all, in my canon she has already retired and it was a good option to have the WoL become a mentor with how powerful they are. But wow they dropped the ball here. I'm completely unable to suspend disbelief!

The plot just can’t keep the momentum up at all. Something exciting happens and then the pace completely drops when we have to go cheer people up or learn about a culture or make dinner when people are dying. The dialogue options are baffling. We all just stand there when we could be murking people on the spot. The Scions don't do anything. We are shown no history between the Promises and their dynamics are not believable. The sudden raise in stakes is offensively bad. The writing is just nonsensical. Bakool Ja Ja 180° personality change and instant forgiveness after his crimes. Zoraal Ja starts a war because war is bad and he wants everyone to know that war is bad... but also because daddy issues. Huh? :confused: The only portion I liked was Shaaloani because it was just the WoL and Erenville having a chill adventure. I cared about the town and its problems and I loved learning about them and helping them. There was combat sprinkled in and the WoL had the most agency/dialogue options out of any portion of the MSQ. It wasn't just a wiki page lore dump or Wuk Lamat saying "I LOVE PEACE!!!!!!!" for the thousandth time. (1/2)

I just can't understand what happened here. FFXIV has had a great track record. They are capable of writing great stories; it's their main marketing point and they know that! I've always played the game in English and never thought about switching, but the LA studio was so bad that I switched to French. The OST has been nothing but bangers but the music in DT was most of the time forgettable. Worst of all was that gospel song... I'm a very sentimental person and yet when that started playing I actually laughed out loud. I felt so uncomfortable from second-hand embarrassment. Is something happening at Square? I hate to be so harsh, but DT was a disappointment in every single department except maybe the combat content and the graphical update. Why would they give the lead character that hogs 90% of the screentime an amateur VA with no experience? Why would they hand off the MAIN STORY to someone who clearly doesn't know the basics of storytelling? I just really don't know what could have possibly happened behind the scenes. It's beyond baffling.

I don't want to dislike the game— why would I after the money and time I've put into it? But this legitimately killed my goodwill and interest in the story going forwards. I'm no longer looking at the future of the game with excitement, but rather a morbid curiosity with how their next few decisions will affect the business of the game. I really just can't understand what happened here. I'm only writing this because I care about the game and I genuinely want things to get shaken up at Square, and I hope adding my thoughts will help make that happen. I apologize for being so blunt and scathing, but I'm in disbelief. :((2/2)

I think part of it is that Ishikawa knew how to stay on-task and on-message, and she at least tried to put new spins on old concepts.

Dawntrail felt like they couldn't decide what they were going for. The Scions are taking a backseat, except they get yanked in as soon as they need warm bodies. Wuk Lamat as covered elsewhere on the forums is all at once the tour guide, expositor, protagonist, comedic relief, and the 'downer' of the group. She was playing all the roles the party should have been playing by herself.

Alexandria, in other threads- nobody can quite decide what the heck to think of it because it goes all sorts of ways. They want you to think the Endless aren't alive, but the Endless demonstrably change in personality and opinion on-screen. Cachiua actively resists the system, Namikka's thoughts on the 'happiest moment of her life' change when she sees Wuk Lamat's grown up (which is a whole nother kettle of debatable worms but I digress)... and then we're told 'nope, we're not alive, pull the plug Kronk!'

They danced back and forth between what they wanted you to think, what role a character was supposed to play. They had the idea of Erenville and Krile's stories, but those were consumed because again, Wuk Lamat was playing their narrative roles. They couldn't be given time because you can't have two comic reliefs in the party, you can't have two melancholics, so one has to go! And so Erenville and Krile had their roles pushed to the side to make room for Wuk Lamat to do it, and... when their stories hit they were so abbreviated it hurt.

Whoever was in charge of keeping the writers on a cohesive theme, cohesive storyline, and coherent plotting was on sabbatical because like... for every point they try to make, an opposite is made, and sometimes the opposite point is made better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Loggos

Would the memories themselves remain but there would be a blank space where the dead person used to be, so you know there was "someone" but you just can't remember them for the life of you?

---

This talk about how the memory removal works is fascinating (and it’s sad we didn’t get to go ore
in depth in game outside of bits and pieces in side quests) but this stuck out to me cuz in the final Cornservant quest this is kinda touched on

Spoilers JIC

Essentially S9 woman has strong feelings of sadness/grief/etc but she doesn’t understand it so it manifest as loss of taste then to loss of appetite. We and Cornservant give her food. That food reminds her that there was someone special in her life tied to this specific food. Acknowledges they’re probably in the cloud/erased from memory. And kinda sorta gets closure on that.

So p.much the memories get erased but it’s not a perfect process since there’s def a possibility of some sort of domino effect when/of other issues happen because you’ve forgotten someone. Whether it be stuff with friends, health, or like I think a quest NPC in S9 received an inheritance and that’s an extra layer of issues.

There’s just a lot of issues not talked about with erasing people from memory.

WARNING: treat this whole post as spoiler




You were warned!





If anyone still hold onto the idea the Endless should be treat as real people and what we did at the end has a case to be argue for genocide, I have one character would invalidate the validity: Otis.

First, the idea of digitalize human is not exactly a new or unexplored concept, but for the viewer/player to treat the projection as real people, the writing usually have to include some underwriting to make the memory unique in certain way. One that pop into my head right away is the anime Zegapain. Humanity got wiped out with a decease, and have to live inside virtual world. However, because it's a lot of data to replicate an authentic version, each person only have one copy stored in a quantum state. The data can be transfer between terminal, but it's always have to be the whole package. If the data is corrupted or damage, the "person" will suffer something akin to sickness. If its host terminal is destroyed, the data is gone forever - aka death.

Second, look at the fact that there are two Otis existing at the same time, for me basically render any argument that can be had about the Endless as real person moot. Because it shows that what we see is indeed, nothing more than data that can be procreate at will because they are not unique. Otherwise, if I kill one Otis it's the murder of one person, but if the system simulate 10 Otis, does that mean i committed murder ten times?



Frankly, the Endless as whole is probably the worst writing I've ever seen regarding this theme in any form of media. It's very obvious that the writers want the provoke some emotional reaction from the players, but has so little skill and forethought to make it work. Another example is the fight where Otis's scarify to save Sphene:

- We were just show 10 minutes earlier when Zoraal Ja repeatedly cutting down Sphene with no real consequence because she's just a terminal.

- So how am I supposed to feel anything when Otis "valiantly" defense Sphene, who for some reason just "helplessly sitting on the ground"? Like, at least tell him it doesn't matter if you care that much, you can always port to another terminal at will like shown just 10 mins ago!

- And then to just rub it in, right after the fight Sphene immediately abandon the terminal that Otis just gave up his life defending. Like ... lady, if you just do that 2 minutes earlier maybe your knight captain wouldn't pointlessly die such a cringy death?


Like I said, it's very obvious the writers want us to "feel" something about this scene, but the only feeling I have after seeing is how ubsurdily stupid it is, almost to the point of insulting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raven2014

Second, look at the fact that there are two Otis existing at the same time, for me basically render any argument that can be had about the Endless as real person moot. Because it shows that what we see is indeed, nothing more than data that can be procreate at will because they are not unique. Otherwise, if I kill one Otis it's the murder of one person, but if the system simulate 10 Otis, does that mean i committed murder ten times?

---

I don't think this follows. If you step into a Star Trek style transporter and on the other side two of you come out, does that mean one of the two isn't a person?

Or for a perhaps more XIV-specific framing, if immediately after the sundering Emet-Selch kills ten of a sundered ancient's "shades" across ten reflections, is he guilty of one murder or ten?

For what OP said, this is so perfect, ATM of typing this, I'm a good chunk through the MSQ and right now I don't find the narrative interesting at all, and it becomes an on and off and on again of MSQing while doing other things because I find it lacking the "wow this is interesting I have to keep going" feeling I got from all previous expansions. I really dislike Wuk because of her Steven universe personality of "love, peace and food" to solve all problem unless It's to beat up ja ja or evil do-er. I thought there would be a moment of "wow is she self reflecting? Is her character going to take a turn/change a little?" Nope. She patted her face with both hands and said "haha I'm good now, no sadness, no loathing of my shortcomings". If anything, the scenery is the most interesting part of the DT than the story has.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raven2014

Second, look at the fact that there are two Otis existing at the same time, for me basically render any argument that can be had about the Endless as real person moot. Because it shows that what we see is indeed, nothing more than data that can be procreate at will because they are not unique. Otherwise, if I kill one Otis it's the murder of one person, but if the system simulate 10 Otis, does that mean i committed murder ten times?

---

They even reinforce this idea by making it plain that mechanical Otis is the original Otis with his first soul and unaltered memories held in some sort of soul crystal technology within the robot. Once the robot (and its inbuilt soul storage) stops functioning Otis is dead.

My issue with Otis as a crux for why the Endless aren't real people is that there's so many other NPCs that contradict him too. Several of the side quests NPCs and even the wedding band guy from MSQ clearly say and are aware of the fact that they died and their continued existence in this form is different but it is a continued existence. They pursue things they were not capable of doing in real life , and honestly Cahciua falls into that category too. And they are aware that their existence in this form cannot last either and are okay with the day coming where they cannot have these forms anymore and move on. As soon as you step out of the MSQ the way the Endless are portrayed feels like a drastic shift of what the MSQ is trying to tell you and force you to feel about them and I genuinely can't tell if thats something that was miscommunicated between the writers for MSQ and the side content.

The existence of Otis himself as he is in the latter part of MSQ aswell is a bit of a puzzle because I genuinely can't remember if his memories(honestly conciousness to some extent) were uploaded and preserved in some way because I was left under the impression he was the first person to ever subject himself to that type of transfer of organic conciousness into the robot and even that process differs from what the Endless we meet are because they aren't robots they just get a form that also just dissipates into magic aether dust (not to mention that they also have NPCs LINGER even after shutting off the server which is also so???? how tf do they linger if they are supposedly part of a machine and that machine is OFF?) . So its like they put him there for the sake of trying to elicit some type of emotional response more than anything.

I agree that it is by far the worst part of the story because it was so terribly inconsistent and honestly its that inconsistency that really pits us into the argument of it. The explanation for the whole thing is so haphazardly put together and the MSQ tries its absolute best to force a view on it for nothing other than to try and mask the morally dubious act you're railroaded into doing. Its a shame we get a narrative over this question be so poorly executed considering we literally have a Nier collab in the game - the franchise that has been tackling these types of questions for years and done an excellent job exploring it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GreenLeafy

My issue with Otis as a crux for why the Endless aren't real people is that there's so many other NPCs that contradict him too. Several of the side quests NPCs and even the wedding band guy from MSQ clearly say and are aware of the fact that they died and their continued existence in this form is different but it is a continued existence. They pursue things they were not capable of doing in real life , and honestly Cahciua falls into that category too. And they are aware that their existence in this form cannot last either and are okay with the day coming where they cannot have these forms anymore and move on. As soon as you step out of the MSQ the way the Endless are portrayed feels like a drastic shift of what the MSQ is trying to tell you and force you to feel about them and I genuinely can't tell if thats something that was miscommunicated between the writers for MSQ and the side content.

The existence of Otis himself as he is in the latter part of MSQ aswell is a bit of a puzzle because I genuinely can't remember if his memories(honestly conciousness to some extent) were uploaded and preserved in some way because I was left under the impression he was the first person to ever subject himself to that type of transfer of organic conciousness into the robot and even that process differs from what the Endless we meet are because they aren't robots they just get a form that also just dissipates into magic aether dust (not to mention that they also have NPCs LINGER even after shutting off the server which is also so???? how tf do they linger if they are supposedly part of a machine and that machine is OFF?) . So its like they put him there for the sake of trying to elicit some type of emotional response more than anything.

I agree that it is by far the worst part of the story because it was so terribly inconsistent and honestly its that inconsistency that really pits us into the argument of it. The explanation for the whole thing is so haphazardly put together and the MSQ tries its absolute best to force a view on it for nothing other than to try and mask the morally dubious act you're railroaded into doing. Its a shame we get a narrative over this question be so poorly executed considering we literally have a Nier collab in the game - the franchise that has been tackling these types of questions for years and done an excellent job exploring it.

---

It's not very well thought out but the reason the NPCs linger is cause of plot armor. The side quests and FATEs within the zone would cease to function as well, and canonically, they probably do. They linger for the sake of gameplay and the zone from being entirely barren.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bonoki

It's not very well thought out but the reason the NPCs linger is cause of plot armor. The side quests and FATEs within the zone would cease to function as well, and canonically, they probably do. They linger for the sake of gameplay and the zone from being entirely barren.

---

Pretty unfortunate use of plot armour if it makes such a crucial part of your MSQ fall on its face lol. God I wish this entire area's narrative was tackled with a bit more finesse. Could've been really good.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Glacierre

Well... truthfully I'm at a loss for words. I'm sitting here at my computer wanting to express just how much I disliked the MSQ and I find myself speechless. I had no expectations and yet Dawntrail still failed to meet them. I am absolutely not canonizing Dawntrail in my WoL's story. I'm sorry to be so harsh, but it's actually offensive and insulting to me and my character's intelligence. :(

---

Same here! My girl would never have followed through supporting Wuk Lamat, so I'm rewriting it to where she tells her flat out 'you are not fit to lead, and I will not support you. I won't stand in your way, but I refuse to do anything to help, either.' And she goes and has her own adventures in Tural, only showing up during certain events when the Scions request her help. Ironically rewriting it has made me MORE excited about the expansion than the actual MSQ itself. It's really, really sad. And frightening, honestly. If this continues to be a trend with the writing, where it's so poor that it feels like the only answer is to rewrite it... well. We'll cross that bridge if we get to it, which I dearly hope we don't.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by franklinwi

Or for a perhaps more XIV-specific framing, if immediately after the sundering Emet-Selch kills ten of a sundered ancient's "shades" across ten reflections, is he guilty of one murder or ten?

---

In the case of the Sunderered, each fragment still carry a partial soul. That's why you can make the argument that they're still real individual, and why Emer Sech's argument can be considered a genocide. The same thing can't be said about the Endless. Like mentioned by another poster:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zaniel

They even reinforce this idea by making it plain that mechanical Otis is the original Otis with his first soul and unaltered memories held in some sort of soul crystal technology within the robot. Once the robot (and its inbuilt soul storage) stops functioning Otis is dead.

---

To be specific, this is mentioned by Sphene after the mechanical Otis died. She said "the old unit does not carry a regulator and thus their soul can not be replenished, he is gone". So if this is the original Otis with a soul, that means the projection in the reflection that exists at the same time were just a fake souless copy, no matter how much sentinel it appeared and that apply to the entire zone 6.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GreenLeafy

My issue with Otis as a crux for why the Endless aren't real people is that there's so many other NPCs that contradict him too ....

I agree that it is by far the worst part of the story because it was so terribly inconsistent and honestly its that inconsistency that really pits us into the argument of it. The explanation for the whole thing is so haphazardly put together and the MSQ tries its absolute best to force a view on it for nothing other than to try and mask the morally dubious act you're railroaded into doing.

---

Yep, like I said it's very obvious what the writers want to do, but somehow they end up write themselves into a corner every times with the Endless. It's like multiple people were working on this piece of lore and it's a case of the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. Considered how in ShB and EW the previous team and Ishakawa painfully make sure things stay consistent when they (very obviously) tried to rewrite the 2.0 lore regarding Ancient (for the better) so that most thing have a feasible explanation, the lack of attention to detail showed here is amazing in a bad way.

For example: if they have consistently stick with mechanical Otis as the standard motifs for all the Endless, they would have success in what they're trying to do. But the moment you step into Zone 6, it's like a completely different writer who disregard everything that was established in zone 5.