SE, don't overthink Summoner 7.0. Just give people what they want. Just do it.

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Originally Posted by Ggwppino

uhm yeah, actually makes sense. It wouldn't be a bad thing if the summons would still "overflow" due to a hypothetical burst delay. Having the "overflow", the player is also led to think about which resources to use and not just to spam.

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Yeah, as you made me think about this, I was starting to feel the same way.

Something EW Summoner is fundamentally-lacking is a sense of, like... "being on your own" to make certain decisions without the game telling you to do it — the sorts of little refinements and adjustments that used to be available to all(?) FFXIV Jobs, and allowed them to have a surprising amount of mechanic-to-mechanic decision-making to explore, for those people who wanted to stubbornly try to maximise their rotation per-encounter.

(And honestly, those elements even spilled "downward" from Savage — I think that it was enjoyable to experiment with tiny adjustments like that even in Alliance Raids and Extremes, and helped to add longevity to otherwise "simpler", "less coordinated", "lower-pressure", etc, content.)

So, an addition that purposefully "breaks" the hyper-clean rotation slightly, and forces a player to actually ask, "Wait, should I spend all of my Gem charges, or... not...?" would be exactly that sort of "Ha ha, you thought the answer was obvious, but actually...!" which has been constantly stripped-away from Jobs over time.

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That said, doing this in a way that feels satisfying, instead of just an annoying trap that boils down to doing what Balance Discord tells you to do, can be tricky.

For example, I am not personally mourning systems like "Choose the order of Geirskogul and Mirage Dive based on whether Blood for Blood has > or < 21.356274 seconds remaining on its CD", which I think become excessively-opaque and basically useless to far too much of the prospective playerbase, because it's just way too much arcane "timer minutiae / micromanagement".

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Originally Posted by Ggwppino

if you had to put some summons within 40 seconds, it would not be bad, but 6 would be too many, it would really be a spam of summons.

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Yeah, 6 Gems per 40s would be...

...well, honestly, it would probably entertain a lot of the playerbase, since most of the feedback about Summoner that I read outside of grognard gathering-places is statements like, "I love Summoner because it's just so cool and flashy!" and "I like Summoner because I can pay attention to the fights more".

However, design-wise, yeah, trying to cram 6 Gems into every 60s cycle would probably produce very lacking gameplay.

But usually, when I see 3-more-Gems proposed, the imagined system is more like (rearrange Gem assignments depending on how much you care about Lore-accurate Astral/Umbral groupings)

1. Bahamut → unlock Astral gems
2. Ifrit, Ramuh, Garuda
3. Phoenix → unlock Umbral gems
4. Leviathan, Shiva, Titan
5. Ultimate Summon Thing
6. Loop to top

...Which doesn't address the upside-down "Demi vs. Basic" order, or the general lack of serious resource considerations, or etc — but I'm trying to "walk before running" right now.

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Originally Posted by Ggwppino

But leaving out the obvious comparison, it is just an empty class without its own effective identity. [...] The smn doesn't have its own way [to fight]. It doesn't have a feature of its own in its "gameplay": button spam I refuse to consider as such. [...] I think that in general it is not a good class on the play side. It doesn't come close to other dps.

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Originally Posted by Ggwppino

the thing that annoys me, my personal, is just this. [...] I already don't like that you emptied and lobotomized my class, but you made it even worse (playfully speaking) than all the other new classes. yoship [...] made it the emptiest class ever.

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I honestly can't seriously-argue with any of these assessments.

I tried to think about it, and EW Summoner's design "identity" seems to be:

• Is comfortable and non-threatening to players of all skill levels
• Casts big flashy things every ~15 seconds
• Changes its playstyle every ~15 seconds according to the flashy-thing activated (but each mini-playstyle must remain approx. as shallow as White Mage DPS rotation)
• Sometimes casts a spell
• Extremely mobile with many instant casts, for design reasons that are not immediately apparent, nor tied to its conceptual nor historical identity

...And you're also right, Summoner "gameplay" is basically just the fundamental FFXIV combat gameplay system, with nearly all the "topsoil" scraped off:

• Keep chaining GCDs at all times possible
• Use things on cooldown (but don't overwrite resources, consume them first)
• Weave OGCDs if available
• Don't move if a castbar is attached, until the action finishes
• Remember to use defensive buttons if you'd KO otherwise
• Remember to press utility/support tools when it's appropriate

...Of course, you can "boil down" most Jobs in FFXIV to something similarly-crude, but the difference with EW Summoner is that you're not actually leaving out very many meaningful details even in such a simplified outline.

ie — Most other Jobs have additional layers on top of that basic system, which lends those Jobs some amount of distinct "identity".

But in contrast, EW Summoner is kind of like a cake without frosting. It's made of a bunch of "basics" mixed together, but then they're "embellished" not with actual mechanics, but just... visual flash, and the promise of fantasy-indulgence.

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I mean, to be more "fair", you can add in considerations like...

• Remember the correct order to activate Gems per encounter / phase
• Remember when it's appropriate to rush Gems, or just overwrite/eat them, in order to not lose Demi casts
• Remember when to use Swiftcast and when to hold it

...But again, this is bare-bones — it doesn't actually interact with any Summoner-specific system, it's just applying basic gameplay principles to what little "system" EW Summoner does have.

or, ie:

• All(?) Jobs have incentive to remember the correct order to activate things in specific circumstances or timelines
• All(?) Jobs make decisions sometimes about whether overwriting or sacrificing a CD or resource is worth it in specific circumstances
• All(?) cast-based Jobs need to consider how to use Swiftcast

...So again, EW Summoner ends up having very little actual identity of its own besides "I make it rain Primals visually".

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Looking at all of this, I think that EW Summoner therefore appeals the most to players who already like — and are "completely happy with" — the "basic" or "overall" FFXIV combat design, and in turn, don't feel concerned about whether or not a Job adds anything more on top of that basic system... especially as long as said Job "looks cool", "feels cool", "has an appealing fantasy", or etc.

And again, when reading comments from broader environments such as (crosses self) Reddit, the recurring theme that becomes clear to me is that a very large(?) number of players seem to choose their Job based entirely on factors such as "it looks really cool", "ease of use / ability to pay attention to other things", and "the most appealing fantasy to me"... with a relative minority focused on actual mechanical details.

From that perspective, EW Summoner's broader popularity probably isn't surprising, even if it seems to have glaring holes and problems when subjected to more detailed or holistically-comparative scrutiny.

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Originally Posted by Ggwppino

Would it make more sense to make it an unlockable class at 70 as an arcanist (ergo level the sch first) or should it be completely separate from the sch and take away the tataru mini lore, at least it's not introducing an unplayable class in ARR.

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Honestly, this is a pretty interesting point.

Not just EW Summoner, but more and more Jobs across-the-board kind of do have that same "Meant to start at 60/70" energy as Dancer or Reaper.

Which, I think, really shows that FFXIV's leveling process is becoming badly-overextended relative to what material is still available to spread out over 90-100 Levels — especially for the "Classic Jobs" that are stuck beginning at level 1... a system which is aging more and more poorly every iteration when compared to the "jump-start" Jobs.

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I'd say a WOW-style "level squish" is warranted, but since FFXIV is at least partially a Final Fantasy nostalgia-product, the chances of that happening are ~nil — Even as the developers keep doing basically the same thing in a roundabout way, by introducing Jobs that leapfrog the first 50, 60, 70, or even (soon enough) 80 levels of progress.

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It might frankly be time to start considering upgrading the Armory System to jump Jobs straight to 50 (or higher) upon unlocking them...

...but then you crash into problems like emptying-out leveling content, or undermining the vestigial Class system.

Which then leads into considering just how many archaeological systems FFXIV is still perched on top of, like a house with very shaky foundations.

But now this is spiraling way off-topic — I think it does kind of highlight, though, how Summoner's leveling problems are mostly symptoms of a much wider set of issues.

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Originally Posted by Ggwppino

I understand your reasoning: so much does this job suck, at this point it's better at least to have new summons. [...] But I just can't get it down. I personally wouldn't get to see my main class in the state it is for much longer

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Yeah, I mean my take is a bit less harsh — more like, "Okay, this is pretty underwhelming, but let's just work with what we've got, and try to at least fill-out the fantasy properly, since for everything it sacrificed, it still hasn't even managed to get that right yet".

But yeah, I also understand your perspective and I'm sympathetic to it.

If I thought that it was really worth anyone's time to propose and outline an elaborate rework of the entire Summoner design, I'd be much more seriously exploring that.

ie, how to take the basic idea EW introduced (10 years later, you can finally summon Real Primals™) and retool it into something closer to the playstyle that Summoner previously had (but with the excessive clutter and jank still stripped-out).

For example, there is no need to delete DOTs entirely, even with considerations about target effect limits — just replace the "debuff" DOTs with more Esteem/Queen-style "DOT pets" instead... which seems to me like it should have been incredibly obvious, because it plays directly into Summoner's entire concept and fantasy.

...Anyway, I think it's a perfectly-admirable goal in concept — wanting your Job to feel more satisfying, and trying to communicate to the developers what would do so.

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Originally Posted by Ggwppino

For my basic English I struggle to write a complete sentence lol

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Don't worry, most of the time I have no problem understanding what you mean. Sometimes it might take a few seconds of reasoning to guess what you intended in terms of an exact word or phrase, but the overall flow of what you're saying has always been clear to me.

Beyond the - obvious - path that is adding the 3 remaining gems tied to Phoenix, which is probably the level 100 capstone (or earlier if they don't embrace this ultimate summon feature from the poster above), I'd really love to see the remaining levels being dedicated into traits that 'evolve' the Aetherflow/Ruin4 system into something that actually interacts with the demis or the gemstones.

I think right now is the least interesting part of the full kit - has no strategic use, or a semblance of thought behind it, unlike the gemstones that still have a situational component to them.

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Originally Posted by Eorzean_username

I honestly can't seriously-argue with any of these assessments.

I tried to think about it, and EW Summoner's design "identity" seems to be:
Is comfortable and non-threatening to players of all skill levels
Casts big flashy things every ~15 seconds
Changes its playstyle every ~15 seconds according to the flashy-thing activated (but each mini-playstyle must remain approx. as shallow as White Mage DPS rotation)
Sometimes casts a spell
Extremely mobile with many instant casts, for design reasons that are not immediately apparent, nor tied to its conceptual nor historical identity
...And you're also right, Summoner "gameplay" is basically just the fundamental FFXIV combat gameplay system, with nearly all the "topsoil" scraped off:
Keep chaining GCDs at all times possible
Use things on cooldown (but don't overwrite resources, consume them first)
Weave OGCDs if available
Don't move if a castbar is attached, until the action finishes
Remember to use defensive buttons if you'd KO otherwise
Remember to press utility/support tools when it's appropriate
...Of course, you can "boil down" most Jobs in FFXIV to something similarly-crude, but the difference with EW Summoner is that you're not actually leaving out very many meaningful details even in such a simplified outline.

ie — Most other Jobs have additional layers on top of that basic system, which lends those Jobs some amount of distinct "identity".

But in contrast, EW Summoner is kind of like a cake without frosting. It's made of a bunch of "basics" mixed together, but then they're "embellished" not with actual mechanics, but just... visual flash, and the promise of fantasy-indulgence.

———————————————————————

I mean, to be more "fair", you can add in considerations like...
Remember the correct order to activate Gems per encounter / phase
Remember when it's appropriate to rush Gems, or just overwrite/eat them, in order to not lose Demi casts
Remember when to use Swiftcast and when to hold it
...But again, this is bare-bones — it doesn't actually interact with any Summoner-specific system, it's just applying basic gameplay principles to what little "system" EW Summoner does have.

or, ie:
All(?) Jobs have incentive to remember the correct order to activate things in specific circumstances or timelines
All(?) Jobs make decisions sometimes about whether overwriting or sacrificing a CD or resource is worth it in specific circumstances
All(?) cast-based Jobs need to consider how to use Swiftcast
...So again, EW Summoner ends up having very little actual identity of its own besides "I make it rain Primals visually".

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But dnc and rpr are also non-threatening classes for new players.
(Besides the fact that if they wanted to make a new class easy to approach, I didn't understand why they had to do it with the smn and not on a new class but oh well, small personal consideration)
The dnc is extremely simple but its gameplay characteristic (which therefore heavily influences its way of playing and the player's attention) are the procs, it is a class that is based on that and it is its characteristic.
The rpr is extremely simple melee dps, but its characteristic is to create the resources for the burst phases and in the burst phase to deal with the various extremely short casts in a *very simplistic* way but which force the player to make micropauses in the movement, paying attention in the agitated phases.
For smn this discourse does not exist. The smn is a generic class, what the smn does is done by all dps and even tanks. Who more and who more. (I wanted to write "who less" but I don't believe it).

Let's analyze the smn because its unique feature I can not find if not the spasmodic spam:
Titan lasts 12.4 seconds, and of these 12.4 seconds it is spasmodic spam (because it is) of button 1 (rite) and button 2 (flow).
Garuda lasts 11.95 seconds, and of these there is the spasmodic spam of button 1 (rite) and then it has 1 flow to cast or basically an instant with a scratch recovery of 3.47 seconds.
Smn has bahamut and phoenix that last 15 seconds each. 15 seconds of spasmodic spamming of a single damn button.
Then there's ifrit, which reminds smn that it's a caster that lasts 13.4 seconds.
We now have that
1: smn gameplay is continuous mindless spam
2: the smn gameplay is to remember after 50 seconds of pure spam that it's a caster. After 50 seconds of spam he does what other casters do all the time. After 50 seconds of spam, just 6 seconds of cast, he faces what all the other casters face all the time. imagine
3: does not have its own mechanics influenced by its role (summoning is not a mechanic because you remove the models of the summons and it is an attack like any other). one mechanic is having to manage one's mana influenced by the lore of the class by alternating astral and umbral for example. That's a mechanic.

The gameplay that was passed at the pre-launch of endwalker was that of a caster who had to think carefully about how to use his summons (this was expected to be the basic behavior, I expected it) instead it is spam the exact same button, not even the 1,2,3 combo of the tank, but the exact same button but be careful that after 50 seconds of pure spam you are a caster (poor thing). For my part there was a:
1) embittered, because my class no longer existed
2) deceived, because what has been announced does not really fully reflect what has been announced, but only superficially: really should have been a "where and when do I use my summons? How and when do I use their abilities?" but objectively I have to think about how and when to use ifrit *on my face there is a note of all imaginable negative emotions while I'm writing this*.
3) disappointed, because besides changing the summons (even if one way is practically the same) there is nothing else.

So my consideration is: work on what we have.
1) Make Titan or Garuda less spammy, we place as much value on trying to use your summons as well as possible as this class's incipit should do (if this class is based on that, it has to be THE class thinking about how to do these variations ).
2) Differentiate these 3 evocations well because 2 out of 3 are practically the same in this way point 1 can also be solved.
3) Introduce predictable (resources) and/or random (proc) variables to the rotation that give depth to the gameplay making it different (from decisions or roll dice).
4) enhance carbuncle and its position by giving it abilities that take advantage of this positioning gameplay potential.
5) Make different, for god's sake, Bahamut and Phoenix: before they were so different from each other, before they were entities with their own mechanics now they are just a skin of each other. Make it less stiff by using excess skill.

And if new summons are needed to remedy these points, I only enjoy it. I chose the summoner when I started, because I like to play thinking about beating monsters with my summons, so I'm just happy, but as a player, I want to play, I don't just want to admire my buddies.

The old smn in many ways was a bunch of things, but it was fun and unique.

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Originally Posted by Ggwppino

But dnc and rpr are also non-threatening classes for new players.

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This is... actually a very good point, and kind of highlights that SE is still "capable" of doing a solid "accessible" design, if they want to.

It's interesting that Yoshida stated in one interview around EW (either pre or shortly post) that they were (heavy paraphrasing, because I can't find the interview now) "really having trouble with what to do with Summoner for EW", so they "brought in a bunch of veteran designers, even from departments outside FFXIV, to all consult on it" and "together, we managed to design something very unique and satisfying".

Again, that's heavily-paraphrased from memory, so don't use it as a citation — but that was the general gist of what he said.

It makes me wonder if he's referring to the FF16 team — it would explain why EW Summoner plays suspiciously like TESCO-brand Clive — and if that influence also helped contribute to EW Summoner feeling like it doesn't quite "belong" inside FFXIV's own system.

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Originally Posted by Ggwppino

So my consideration is: work on what we have.
1) Make Titan or Garuda less spammy, we place as much value on trying to use your summons as well as possible as this class's incipit should do (if this class is based on that, it has to be THE class thinking about how to do these variations ).
2) Differentiate these 3 evocations well because 2 out of 3 are practically the same in this way point 1 can also be solved.

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I agree that the blandness / similarity of Titan and Garuda is a major issue with making the filler feel so stale.

Another major issue, though, I think... is that the system is just too "air-tight". Summoner is so locked into its (roughly-speaking) 15/15/15/15 division per 60s that there's very little room to add, adjust, or unify mechanics into a more cohesive-feeling rotation.

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Originally Posted by Ggwppino

3) Introduce predictable (resources) and/or random (proc) variables to the rotation that give depth to the gameplay making it different (from decisions or roll dice).

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I also see nothing wrong with fleshing things out using these sorts of mechanics.

Going back to RPR and DNC and even GNB, it's perhaps telling that they all have some sort of resource to build, manage, and adjust.

It doesn't even have to be a Gauge — back in Heavensward, Jobs were plenty-engaging just by being creative with the Buff/Debuff system (eg, Blood of the Dragon stacks, Aethertrail Attunement stacks, Greased Lightning Stacks, Enochian timer, etc).

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Originally Posted by Ggwppino

4) enhance carbuncle and its position by giving it abilities that take advantage of this positioning gameplay potential.

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I also agree that Carbuncle "needs help".

SE's solution will probably just be to Old Yeller the poor thing in 7.0 — you know, (the "taps forehead" meme goes here), "You can't have issues with Carbuncle not doing anything if Carbuncle doesn't exist".

As for something less depressing — Pet-positioning gameplay seems to be "going the way of the dodo", probably due to pet-responsiveness issues (I think we can all remember the "joy" of trying to make sure Devotion always went off in the correct location).

However, at least some sort of "Carbuncle Empowerment" that temporarily supercharges Carbuncle like Living Shadow/Queen Automaton, maybe? Perhaps by consuming a Carbuncle Gauge that fills up when you (??? do stuff?) — would help to add some purpose and presence to the poor guy.

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Originally Posted by Ggwppino

5) Make different, for god's sake, Bahamut and Phoenix: before they were so different from each other, before they were entities with their own mechanics now they are just a skin of each other. Make it less stiff by using excess skill.

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I agree; I personally feel that the oversimplification of Bahamut/Phoenix phases probably caused the most significant damage to the overall Summoner "feel", out of all of the EW changes.

It's not that Bahamut/Phoenix were traditionally mechanically complex in concept, but they had enough considerations going on that it felt satisfying to pull them off. That has been hollowed-out near-completely, it feels like.

To be honest, it's bizarre that it feels like there's literally more going on mentally and mechanically during Titan, than during the "capstone" Mega-Summons — calling down a huge Dragon or a mythical Firebird should not be the most boring part of my entire rotation.

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ie — in SB, Bahamut was indeed an "instant spam" phase (with Ruin 2), but it was also about kitchen-sinking as many actions as possible to try to force Bahamut to vomit out the mythical 11(?) Wyrmwaves. And Bahamut's hypersensitivity to movement meant that the instant spam was not as liberating as it sounds.

And in ShB, which probably went too far in terms of punishment potential, Bahamut became a "Ley Lines" kind of turret-phase, while Phoenix became a "combo-lite"/"cleave" phase, and they both had a hefty amount of weaving going on in-between, as well.

It was certainly annoying to have the Demis's troubled AI stop doing anything and follow you around. And it was also a bit too sensitive in terms of timing their Summon cast just-so (the borderline-mysticism required to maximise Scarlet Flames was frankly ridiculous).

However, stripping out unfriendly QOL issues should have been replaced by equivalent depth that was "fair". Instead they stripped out... everything, added nothing to replace it, and then for good measure broke the FOF-BOP combo.

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Originally Posted by Eorzean_username

This is... actually a very good point, and kind of highlights that SE is still "capable" of doing a solid "accessible" design, if they want to.

It's interesting that Yoshida stated in one interview around EW (either pre or shortly post) that they were (heavy paraphrasing, because I can't find the interview now) "really having trouble with what to do with Summoner for EW", so they "brought in a bunch of veteran designers, even from departments outside FFXIV, to all consult on it" and "together, we managed to design something very unique and satisfying".

Again, that's heavily-paraphrased from memory, so don't use it as a citation — but that was the general gist of what he said.

It makes me wonder if he's referring to the FF16 team — it would explain why EW Summoner plays suspiciously like TESCO-brand Clive — and if that influence also helped contribute to EW Summoner feeling like it doesn't quite "belong" inside FFXIV's own system.

——————————————————

I agree that the blandness / similarity of Titan and Garuda is a major issue with making the filler feel so stale.

Another major issue, though, I think... is that the system is just too "air-tight". Summoner is so locked into its (roughly-speaking) 15/15/15/15 division per 60s that there's very little room to add, adjust, or unify mechanics into a more cohesive-feeling rotation.

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I don't have the ps5 so I only rely on other people's comments and news, but in fact they say that the game is very simple :skull:

As for the interview, I too remember him saying a similar thing and adding that there have been multiple iterations of the summoner to get to what it is now. I'd be curious to know what these iterations were like honestly hahaha

Anyway,I like the idea that there is a caster who has to think carefully about how to use their summons and abilities during savages/ultimates. a bit what blm does for uptime, but even more specialized, as it is properly the way to play the class. But as it was finally proposed, it's only the class bought on Wish: beautiful preview, it arrives at your home and well...

Technically I don't even find having compartmentalized summons a bad thing: in this way it really pushes the player to choose the best his own evocation in a precise instant of time because it is more convenient (which can be for the damage, for the movement or/and for a hypothetical future uptime). In this way it encourages the player to always be careful of what to use during the fight. Clearly these summons must entice the player to be very careful, evaluating each time what to do, but if they are all spammy af, everything falls apart, as the considerations are really reduced, given that when you spam a key you do everything but think.

The question of the compartment shouldn't even preclude the possibility of being able to reuse a certain one summoning (clearly there should be limits)

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I also agree that Carbuncle "needs help".

SE's solution will probably just be to Old Yeller the poor thing in 7.0 — you know, (the "taps forehead" meme goes here), "You can't have issues with Carbuncle not doing anything if Carbuncle doesn't exist".

As for something less depressing — Pet-positioning gameplay seems to be "going the way of the dodo", probably due to pet-responsiveness issues (I think we can all remember the "joy" of trying to make sure Devotion always went off in the correct location).

However, at least some sort of "Carbuncle Empowerment" that temporarily supercharges Carbuncle like Living Shadow/Queen Automaton, maybe? Perhaps by consuming a Carbuncle Gauge that fills up when you (??? do stuff?) — would help to add some purpose and presence to the poor guy.

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the main problem with the carbuncle is that it has terrible AI, and they know it too. Responsivity was lost mainly when the pet had to move towards a target and attack and from there, in cascade, there was a domino effect of incredible delay. And ghosting exists (because it still exists with radiant aegis on not very fast connections) because the carbuncle disappears.
Having said that, these are the problems and knowing the problems you can also arrive at a solution to eliminate or at least greatly mitigate the problem.
1) the carbuncle has no active attacks but support and if it has targets it does it from a distance. At most it can place a dot under him or ranged attacks (but I prefer the first one ahahah)
2) the carbuncle has no auto-attack
3) its skills are instant
4) when a skill is activated and the carbuncle is moving it stops to activate the skill
5) never disappears unless the player dies or is recalled.

in other comments I had proposed skills such as "Radiant aegis II" (aoe), an aoe cure that activates when a phoenix is ​​summoned, restore "Searing light" and "Rescue".
Of all of them, in my opinion, having rescue is the candidate to be the funniest, because I can use it on a target (me or a party member) and be dragged onto the carbuncle, opening up to various scenarios.

anyway yeah, i bet my salary they kill the carbuncle (cause it is the simplest choice there is)

Just a casual giving their two cents here but I hope they at the very least rework out it feels to summon. A cast time or channeling(like MCH's flamethrower) would be nice. It feels weird that these big attacks are instant casts and probably contributes to how railroaded it feels.

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Originally Posted by Tarrinus

Just a casual giving their two cents here but I hope they at the very least rework out it feels to summon. A cast time or channeling(like MCH's flamethrower) would be nice. It feels weird that these big attacks are instant casts and probably contributes to how railroaded it feels.

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Personally, I prefer that they reconsider the gameplay mechanics of elemental summons and add more depth to it.
I don't think it's a good idea to make elemental summons have a global cooldown (GCD) with a cast time. However, I do believe that the GCD should be reduced from 2.5 seconds to 1.5 seconds, the transition between elemental summons is currently very slow and boring.

For Phoenix and Bahamut, I would love to see them inspired by the PvP system, with a 1.5-second cast time and a 2.5-second recast time for Bahamut (high DPS).

Regarding Phoenix, I would like it to focus on instant cast abilities, support skills, and moderate damage.
Since they were planning to remove resurrection in 7.0, they should instead use Phoenix to provide Summoners with 1 stack of instant/free resurrection ability. Phoenix symbolizes the flame of rebirth, so it would make sense to have a rez and a team area spell 5% damage taken reduction and an additional 5% healing increase.

I'm not in favor of having too many team healing-over-time effects/heal in the game,currently, many DPS and Tanks have access to it, and it doesn't help the healer roles.
"proof is TOP with no healers") is partly due to this design issue, although i acknowledge that the players who achieve this feat are truly skilled, it still presents a problem for the game and healer roles.

I've been away for a while, and I'm very happy to see such a well thought out thread about doing stuff to Summoner like adding Ramuh/Leviathan/Shiva! That's something I've been longing for for a LONG time, and now that there's the full summons and gem system for summoning Ifrit/Titan/Garuda after summoning Bahamut (which can now be done instantly instead of a resource meter wind-up, which is a huge plus), it's possible to fit into Phoenix phase.

I just hope that the team does something like this. >_<

it seems like the consensus is that SMN should get an Astral/Umbral stance similar to BLM but it rotates with the corresponding elements that it is affiliated with. I've stated it before several pages ago but its the easiest way to add 3 more summons without having to be overly clunky. I think they should also make it work similar to MNK blitz where once you aligned both Astral and Umbral you get to summon a powerful primal like Alexander or even alternate version like Bahamut Zero. Similar to the blitz you have the option to pick with stance you go into first so it's not always bahamut first but rather, you can pick either bahamut or phoenix in your opener. It adds some flexibility to the job and can make recovery after a death easier.

However I really think they should address the early game for SMN because it feels so gutted and an extremely poor representation of what the job will be at max lvl. I also think they should implement some "fun" quirks into the job. Something like a 1% chance to summon King Mog or even Odin. It has no effect on gameplay other than pure cosmetic but a fun quirk nonetheless.

At this point summoner getting reworked every expansion is just part of its class identity

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Originally Posted by Monokhrom

At this point summoner getting reworked every expansion is just part of its class identity

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There's no way to tell, but I think 7.0 will be the first time the summoner doesn't have a major change.

When they reworked the machinist from scratch they only made extremely minor changes in version 6.0,
so that's what summoner 7.0 will be I think.

Although I would like them to rework it on how phoenix/bahamut works and elementals summons too.

They weirdly put themselves into a weird place. They said they wanted to create a new base they can build on. How do you build on 6.0 SMN? Is it just new summons after phoenix? I really want a bit more depth in the gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Sequora

They weirdly put themselves into a weird place. They said they wanted to create a new base they can build on. How do you build on 6.0 SMN? Is it just new summons after phoenix? I really want a bit more depth in the gameplay.

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They will add trait upgrades for various things, to increase potency and change VFX (to give the illusion that it is new)

For actual new things, there will be one new thing: idk what it'd be, but it will replace the final Ruin 3 filler you have to do to loop the rotation properly

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

For actual new things, there will be one new thing: idk what it'd be, but it will replace the final Ruin 3 filler you have to do to loop the rotation properly

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Second stack of Ruin IV, please look forward to it.