Please don't harass people for ignoring/disliking the story

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I correctly called out the Eureka, Blue Mage, Limited Races, and Endwalker controversies. When my counsel has been heeded, the game does well. When it flies in the face of them, catastrophe has ensued.

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Wow that's such a huge ego. I knew it was huge but the whole "when my counsel has been heeded" stuff... Hoodoo boy. Dang folks I didn't he had a family member who worked as part of the dev team. Seriously that comes off like you were a patron of Teledji Adeleji while hoping Nanamo would decide something in his favor but you somehow lost his ear.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

Wow that's such a huge ego. I knew it was huge but the whole "when my counsel has been heeded" stuff... Hoodoo boy. Dang folks I didn't he had a family member who worked as part of the dev team. Seriously that comes off like you were a patron of Teledji Adeleji while hoping Nanamo would decide something in his favor but you somehow lost his ear.

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At this point, I'm starting to think he's a REALLY dedicated troll, in for the long game.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

At this point, I'm starting to think he's a REALLY dedicated troll, in for the long game.

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If he ISNT a troll...then god forbid there are some issues.
But if he IS a troll...eh, with his hot takes its not a surprise.

But hey, Ive said before he is a Good Laugh sometimes.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

It definitely isn't, but it could be on a downturn. I was talking about this over Discord, but EW won't really be a wakeup call for any real changes. They'd have to have a spectacular failure of an expansion, and perhaps the arrival of competent competitors for that to really happen.

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I never thought it'd outright DIE (Hells, just look to World of Warcraft even today), but it's difficult to deny it's mooning the crowd with its ever more obvious rust on the near daily. Be it here, or on Reddit (maybe not Twitter, but I don't go there) more and more threads are popping up criticizing Endwalker/6.1-6.2/2022 FFXIV/what have you and its various aspects on social media. I'm choosing to believe that's indicative of something. As to whether or not that'll spur Yoshi-P and Creative Dev Team III to amend the more egregious of the game's drawbacks, well who can say really? I only know where my bets are being placed, and by now with my tenure on this forum I'm rather sure everyone else does too.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Really? We remember stormblood very differently then.

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The difference rather obviously lies in the fact that the critique of Stormblood unified the community. Endwalker differs in that, at least for now, its critics are more outspoken and less numerous. However, we can already witness verifiable evidence of an uptick in the vocally dissatisfied. For far different reasons than Stormblood, though I daresay a few are rather similar.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Funny how you say this, yet FFV also didnt shy away to add in goofy humor within its plot and basic predictable rpg tropes. Which are things you "heavily criticize" with EW. Get out of here, dont drag my beloved FFV into your bs nonsense, you clearly have not played the game for you to be stating that FFV had more major character deaths (Galuf was the only person who died) and character growth than the ongoing narrative between multiple characters in FFXIV and its expansions.

I say this as somebody who loves FFV.

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I'd argue that Aveyond and others' main points is that (at least from what I remember) that the humourous moments in Endwalker far outstripped the tense moments laid out in contrast of them, were injected at inopportune and I even daresay disrespectful times, and were handle generally overall rather poorly. It simply felt like the Apocalypse (and the potential loss of life and feelings associated with such) were not truly treated with the gravity such is deserving of.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

The basic story mechanics of character arcs having a beginning, middle, and end with some compelling moments in between and holding on to that growth? Apologies but as far as I'm concerned I was right in that post as well. Bonus points for the visual diversity that party had as opposed to the Scions.

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I'll stop answering afterwards, because there's no point.

Character stories that have to be stretched over several expansions (= several years) and those that are stretched over a single expansion cannot obey the same rules. The story arc you describe exists, and it exists for several characters belonging to the Scions. Let's take the example of Thancred:

- Beginning: not very stable. Thief. Gets tricked by the ascians.
- Disruptive element: Minfillia. Questioning, evolution, maturation.
- End: Shb. Peace with his role as a father. Grief. Ends as a tank, which is a priori in complete opposition to the thief at the beginning.

So no, there is indeed the narrative pattern you describe. You can't see it because you're old to the game, and there's always been a huge difficulty in adapting this kind of arc to long scenarios as imposed by MMORPGs. This concern (the incompatibility between the game's genre and the narrative) is not the one you're pointing at, since you're simply claiming that the NPC narrative arc doesn't exist.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I correctly called out the Eureka, Blue Mage, Limited Races, and Endwalker controversies. When my counsel has been heeded, the game does well. When it flies in the face of them, catastrophe has ensued.

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Sorry, but at this point it's just ridiculous.

What did you call out?

Eureka: people do this content until now, there are active discords for it, even for BA

BlueMage: I see a lot of people with BlueMage-Titles, so obviously there are people, who like this content as well.

Endwalker: you mean the 50 people (and I´m probably generous with the number) in the forum, who don´t like the story and debate without end.

Great job^^

As a longtime lurker who has been avoiding these threads...I do think the fact Endwalker is well, an end to an arc several years in the making shall inevitably lead to dissent irrespective of objective quality. Heck, there's probably an equation out there to roughly plot the percentage of dissatisfied watchers rising with each season added onto a story that must acknowledge an increasing amount of contextual weight brought into play.
Not to claim any criticism is baseless or even Endwalker good (although I enjoyed it overall in spite of its flaws so colour me somewhat biased) - simply an observation there has been very few uncontroversial conclusions to long running sagas in memory. Sorta goes with the territory.
To answer the thread title, harassment as an accusation gets tossed around with such regularity I frankly have no clue whether I'd be 'for' harassment or against it; by the classical definition its a safe 'no'.

...I like a plain cheeseburger, bacon optional. No condiments or pickles, cooked medium rare (because my usual craving for raw meat must bow to the wisdom that is health and safety regulations)

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

The game is loaded with things named after places, peoples, or historical events that never happened on Etherys. Focusing on hamburgers as if they're the only thing to do so is silly.

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I draw the line at hamburgers.

A final note: I didn't necessarily mean to unleash some kind of rage against one person. It was more a form of disappointment towards someone I rather like to read on the forum, because she is obviously passionate about the subject of video game storytelling and it's an interest I understand only too well.

We're obviously talking to someone who deeply loves this game. It's all to his credit, especially since I think there are several of us on this forum who like to rack our brains on the storylines.

Anyway. And you, your burger, do you eat it medium or rare?

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Originally Posted by Merrigan

I'll stop answering afterwards, because there's no point.

Character stories that have to be stretched over several expansions (= several years) and those that are stretched over a single expansion cannot obey the same rules. The story arc you describe exists, and it exists for several characters belonging to the Scions. Let's take the example of Thancred:

- Beginning: not very stable. Thief. Gets tricked by the ascians.
- Disruptive element: Minfillia. Questioning, evolution, maturation.
- End: Shb. Peace with his role as a father. Grief. Ends as a tank, which is a priori in complete opposition to the thief at the beginning.

So no, there is indeed the narrative pattern you describe. You can't see it because you're old to the game, and there's always been a huge difficulty in adapting this kind of arc to long scenarios as imposed by MMORPGs. This concern (the incompatibility between the game's genre and the narrative) is not the one you're pointing at, since you're simply claiming that the NPC narrative arc doesn't exist.

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A point you've conveniently left out is when I stated that such growth should occur on a per-expansion basis in order to justify a character's time and presence on screen. I don't like how Thancred sat like a log for most of Endwalker and how him and others didn't progress their arcs or regressed in them like Alphinaud did again. Have a good one, take care to be more accurate next time.

Trying to still bank on an arc that started a decade ago and expecting me to still care about a character when they cease to contribute to the plot in a meaningful way is nothing short of actually being unreasonable.

I dunno about anyone else, but I'm excited to see what an actual novelist has to say. Enough of these basement dwelling wannabes. :)

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Originally Posted by SentioftheHoukai

I never thought it'd outright DIE (Hells, just look to World of Warcraft even today), but it's difficult to deny it's mooning the crowd with its ever more obvious rust on the near daily. Be it here, or on Reddit (maybe not Twitter, but I don't go there) more and more threads are popping up criticizing Endwalker/6.1-6.2/2022 FFXIV/what have you and its various aspects on social media. I'm choosing to believe that's indicative of something. As to whether or not that'll spur Yoshi-P and Creative Dev Team III to amend the more egregious of the game's drawbacks, well who can say really? I only know where my bets are being placed, and by now with my tenure on this forum I'm rather sure everyone else does too.

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It's indicative of a larger playerbase...simple math, when there are more people playing a game, there will likewise be a larger pure number of people commenting on it, even though the % of the playerbase it represents may be completely unchanged. Simply put, EW has brought in the highest playerbase in FFXIV of any expansion to date, so naturally there will be more commentary. Given the general trend of this forum to always go negative, I'd posit that the regular pushback against the echo chamber actually shows how popular the current game is (compare for example to SB when there was very little pushback against the complaints).

Frankly, I don't see much at all in the way of "egregious drawbacks." I'm not into housing, and I know that's a hot topic, so that might potentially be seen as something, but that's about it. Go practically anywhere else on the internet and you'll see near-universal praise for the current characters, story, etc.. And not to mention of course how much people in-game are enjoying themselves.

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Originally Posted by Ameela

There is no Hamburg in Eorzea, so where does the word hamburger come from?!

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It's never actually called "hamburger" in the story though. The Last Stand just has "burger" and it's called "Archon Burger" in the crafting log. The Last Stand probably just has a different etymology.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

I dunno about anyone else, but I'm excited to see what an actual novelist has to say. Enough of these basement dwelling wannabes. :)

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You still have not answered my question.

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.n...etterbox=false

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Originally Posted by SentioftheHoukai

I never thought it'd outright DIE (Hells, just look to World of Warcraft even today), but it's difficult to deny it's mooning the crowd with its ever more obvious rust on the near daily. Be it here, or on Reddit (maybe not Twitter, but I don't go there) more and more threads are popping up criticizing Endwalker/6.1-6.2/2022 FFXIV/what have you and its various aspects on social media. I'm choosing to believe that's indicative of something. As to whether or not that'll spur Yoshi-P and Creative Dev Team III to amend the more egregious of the game's drawbacks, well who can say really? I only know where my bets are being placed, and by now with my tenure on this forum I'm rather sure everyone else does too.

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The moment I saw people hating on Shadowbringers online I realized a lot of it is just pure unadultered contrarianism by bored teens that want to feel special for having a differing opinion from the masses.

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

You still have not answered my question.

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I've moved on from whatever you asked me. Consider doing the same.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

I've moved on from whatever you asked me. Consider doing the same.

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I think not.

https://i.redd.it/r23ebtn9rkg81.png

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Originally Posted by Ameela

The moment I saw people hating on Shadowbringers online I realized a lot of it is just pure unadultered contrarianism by bored teens that want to feel special for having a differing opinion from the masses.

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Shadowbringers is by far the best expansion storywise IMO, but let's not kid ourselves. It is far from being above criticism.
Thinking otherwise is cult talk.

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

Shadowbringers is by far the best expansion storywise IMO, but let's not kid ourselves. It is far from being above criticism.
Thinking otherwise is cult talk.

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I never implied anything of the sort, but the kinds of comments I see about it are definitely contrarian talk.

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Originally Posted by Ameela

I never implied anything of the sort, but the kinds of comments I see about it are definitely contrarian talk.

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You most definitely implied that the mere act of hating on Shadowbringers was contrarian (since you put emphasis on the expac and not the contrarian comments) but whatever.
I could perfectly see how one could hate Shadowbringers without being merely a contrarian, as it dramatically shift the game's focus from world-driven political story, to a character-driven more intimate story. A lot of people seem to prefer the latter, but I've seen fans of the former being legitimately disappointed by the game's direction. There is very little in the game currently that feels remotely like 2.1-2.5 ARR.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

I dunno about anyone else, but I'm excited to see what an actual novelist has to say. Enough of these basement dwelling wannabes. :)

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Why would that be important to you?

Novels are a different medium. The author has the ability to develop the story and characters at a pace of their choosing, whether it all happens in 100 pages or 10,000. They have the luxury of being able to write it in a week or in a decade (assuming they don't tie themselves to a publisher contract in advance of completing their work).

Writers for games have to work around the game play elements and production deadlines. They don't have the luxury of going into depth for story and character development.

Ultimately the only opinions that matter are those of the end user - the reader or the player. Since not everyone finds the same things entertaining, there's going to be disagreement over how good something was. It's especially true when the reader/player starts taking an obsessive interest in specific characters and the writer creates a story path for the character that runs counter to the interest the reader/player has in the character. Certainly we see more than enough of that around here.

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

You most definitely implied that the mere act of hating on Shadowbringers was contrarian (since you put emphasis on the expac and not the contrarian comments) but whatever.
I could perfectly see how one could hate Shadowbringers without being merely a contrarian, as it dramatically shift the game's focus from world-driven political story, to a character-driven more intimate story. A lot of people seem to prefer the latter, but I've seen fans of the former being legitimately disappointed by the game's direction. There is very little in the game currently that feels remotely like 2.1-2.5 ARR.

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By the same token, the opposite would probably explain the disappointment many had in Stormblood. It was a good expansion but lacked the character development we saw in Heavensward.

Players are looking for different things. What satisfies one won't satisfy another. It's fine for people not to agree.

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Originally Posted by Ameela

to be fair, how do they have hamburgers in medieval times

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It's not medieval times though?

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Why would that be important to you?

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The importance might be overstated. It's mostly a dig at what passes for story commentary from certain people. ;)

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Originally Posted by kaynide

It's not medieval times though?

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Old Sharlayan and Garlemald definitely aren't Medieval. They are way more Modernized and have technical advancements.

The game's a fantasy kitchen sink. We've got steam age, medieval, samurai, futuristic magitek, functional magic, aliens, and whatever else the writers feel like throwing in at any given time.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

Old Sharlayan and Garlemald definitely aren't Medieval. They are way more Modernized and have technical advancements.

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Hamburgers are just a strange thing to be fixated on if someone considers a fantasy game as "Medieval".

Like why would burgers be the problem? Why not zippers? or the fact the color blue is widely available? Or large sailing ships? Pasta with tomato sauce? Widely available medicine?

In the literal dark ages where people simply couldn't afford meat and were struggling to just get by. Of course they wouldn't have the luxury of ground beef. The only thing stopping it was people not having the time/resources to make them.

Even further back when people DID have free time, Romans had a burger (Link), so it's just a weird hangup. They even had restaurants with take out.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

Hamburgers are just a strange thing to be fixated on if someone considers a fantasy game as "Medieval".

Like why would burgers be the problem? Why not zippers? or the fact the color blue is widely available? Or large sailing ships? Pasta with tomato sauce? Widely available medicine?

In the literal dark ages where people simply couldn't afford meat and were struggling to just get by. Of course they wouldn't have the luxury of ground beef. The only thing stopping it was people not having the time/resources to make them.

Even further back when people DID have free time, Romans had a burger (Link), so it's just a weird hangup. They even had restaurants with take out.

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Purple is also widely common. There was a reason it was the color of royalty.

Not to mention the game literally has holograms and holographic technology Ala the Allagans.

And another page full of people missing the point, being deliberately disingenuous and still wondering why people don’t bother engaging in drawn out back and forths with them.

May they enjoy their cute and quirky college town expansion for however long it lasts, if I were Yoshi I would’ve cut Endwalker short in the same fashion WoW did to one of its expansions in order to send us into 7.0 all the faster.

Though it will mean nothing if the big event he teased amounts to little more than superficial feels revolving around the scions or the dragon, combined with us eating Taco Bell in the New World or Pancakes in Meracydia.

These writers need to rebuild their image and make it quick if they ever want to be taken seriously by players like myself again, 6.2’s msq was a step in that direction but my confidence is too shaken to place any further trust in them. Especially since sometime later this year we’ll be made to endure whatever story is sending us into a dungeon with Nanamo, Loporrits dancing atop the Crater of Martyrs, the Starbucks at the edge of the universe, and in 6.3 more adventures with one of the worst characters in the entire game combined with a pantheon whose presence is scarcely felt in the game’s world outside 2, long since abandoned regions.

So many tears, so little time.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

and still wondering why people don’t bother engaging in drawn out back and forths with them.

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Who the heck asked?
We were doing just fine talking amongst ourselves while you hid.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

These writers need to rebuild their image and make it quick if they ever want to be taken seriously by players like myself again, 6.2’s msq was a step in that direction but my confidence is too shaken to place any further trust in them.

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Oh no, the mighty and always right Aveyond has to be catered to or the game will die.

Never minding Aveyond's childish vision of the future of the game, I am excited for whats coming.
The Hippo Riders Tribal Quest, the Myths of the Realm Alliance Raid Series, and the Pandemonium 8-man Raid Series have all been great. The Hildibrand Storyline Finally continuing is fantastic to see. And even though its a rough slow start.....afterall we are building up to our next adventure, Im quite intrigued to see where the MSQ story is going, and what this Big Event might be that YoshiP mentioned.
The New Crit Dungeons have me curious, cant wait to try them out and see if it will create the Legendary Mythic+ Toxicity
Doomsayers will be Doomsayers, and not everyone can be pleased and will have different taste. But I think this game always comes through in the end and always does something exciting to keep people invested.

Ill trust in the devs.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

The Hildibrand Storyline Finally continuing is fantastic to see.

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I'm just happy they let us be the crazy one for once

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Originally Posted by Rannie

Not to mention the game literally has holograms and holographic technology Ala the Allagans.

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let's not forget a space ship to go to space with

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

By catering to twitter players who by now are probably now knee-deep in Disney Dreamlight Valley instead of staying in FFXIV.

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I didn't even know that game existed! I'll have to wishlist that. I like all the outfits and stuff. :o

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

Old Sharlayan and Garlemald definitely aren't Medieval. They are way more Modernized and have technical advancements.

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They have their own pizza!!!

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Originally Posted by SentioftheHoukai

I never thought it'd outright DIE (Hells, just look to World of Warcraft even today), but it's difficult to deny it's mooning the crowd with its ever more obvious rust on the near daily. Be it here, or on Reddit (maybe not Twitter, but I don't go there) more and more threads are popping up criticizing Endwalker/6.1-6.2/2022 FFXIV/what have you and its various aspects on social media. I'm choosing to believe that's indicative of something. As to whether or not that'll spur Yoshi-P and Creative Dev Team III to amend the more egregious of the game's drawbacks, well who can say really? I only know where my bets are being placed, and by now with my tenure on this forum I'm rather sure everyone else does too.

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I rather think ShB was more the start of it, but Shb had a relatively well written story (although, it compromised the overall narrative), and was well received. We started to see quite a bit of compromise starting there I think. I've said it before, but Endwalker's narrative suffers, in my opinion, because it's two stories smashed into one; it felt like they were rushing to conclude the story arc. Each expansion has these 'slice of life' elements, but due to the pacing of the expansion they felt out of place to many. That isn't to mention how many players are fatigued by the overwhelming amount of fan service in regards to certain characters.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

They have their own pizza!!!

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We even had a recent food eating scene with said pizza. Course it was in Thavnir. At least I want to say there was pizza in the 6.2 scene. I remember being angry for whatever reason that it was in that scene cause it wasn't on the WoL's side of the table. I'm surprised that it seems Varshahn isn't more akin to Meteion in that he's able to take in food. Considering that the body I'm assuming is lifeless whenever Vrtra's eye isn't inhabiting it. I guess they'd make it capable to do so in order to help sell the lie? Which I mean does that mean the body gets more energy from the food or does the food eaten somehow transfer over to Vrtra and how come there have been no rumors that the Saltrap eats a lot of food for one person. You know before everyone found out about Vrtra. We know dragons eat. I might be thinking too deeply about this. @.@;;

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Originally Posted by SannaR

We know dragons eat.

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we do?
But what?

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Originally Posted by hagare

we do?
But what?

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Humans... remember don't anger a dragon for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup =P

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Originally Posted by hagare

we do?
But what?

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https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...TtLQA&usqp=CAU

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Neat? Skip away I guess? Seems like a waste when story is like 80% of the game, but whatever.

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Some people play for the gameplay first story second
nothing wrong with that