Building a better Alphinaud

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

How convenient that you left out both Eulmore and Garlemald.They've turned 4 unique nation states into cooker cutter democracies over the course of Season 1. Once would've been tolerable, twice would've been questionable, but this? And of what little other monarchies or unique systems remain, half of them have had any intrigue and grit stripped from them or were otherwise left behind in regions of the world like the far east that we won't be visiting again any time soon.

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This argument is even further ridiculous, because the Scions had NOTHING to do with either of them becoming republics. In Eulmore, they didn't tell the people to elect a new Mayor; the citizens did that on their own. In the case of Garlemald, the Scions did literally NOTHING. They didn't kill the dictator, they didn't kill the royal family, and they didn't decide not to form a new monarchy. The people did that all on their own. Hell, even in the case of Gyr Abania, blaming the Scions makes no sense because the first question Lyse asked was if anybody else wanted the throne, and all of them said no.

The fact that you continuously blame the Scions for this makes it pretty clear that your argument here isn't to actually bring up legitimate issues. Your goal is to add another reason to "hate" the Scions for no reason in particular, and it doesn't matter how far you need to reach to do it.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Not everything has to be so cookie cutter and samey.

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Once again:

"Another monarchy - vArIeTy!"

"Democracies - sAmEy!"

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Source? Not that I don't think Fordola has fans. As I mentioned, I'm personally quite happy to see more of her. And where she is after the healer role quest is where I think she would finally be able to travel with us. Even without the necklace, she would not have been in the right place as a character to join us on our world-saving adventures before the latest story threads. The WoL usually sees eye to eye with the Scions but there's not a single indication we wouldn't tear off on our own if it was something we felt we had to get done. So if she wasn't in a place where she agreed, we would just leave her behind anyway.

And every good DM knows, you don't want to split the party all the time.

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As a huge Fordola fan and someone who would love for her to join the party, the idea that she has more fans than the twins doesn't even qualify as a stretch. We're pretty rare birds, as far as I can tell, actually. (For what it's worth, I do also really like the twins.)

EDIT: The huge NHK Final Fantasy favorites poll from a couple of years ago (during the Shadowbringers era), of course, isn't absolute, but I do think it's useful as a general metric for these things. As I've cited for other characters, Minfilia managed to make the (low) rankings. Fordola did not. It's okay, I still love her and get excited every time she gets a droplet of new content!

Is Fordola not popular among JP players? I seem to recall seeing a thread on the JP forums asking for Highlanders to be made more feminine. Combined with her abrasive personality, I could see how she might not be. She's one of the most requested party members in my circles, granted that's anecdotal. Hell, I'm not even a huge fan of Fordola myself other than I would recruit any "realist" to balance out the idealism in the group. Estinien said the world has enough realists, but not from where I'm sitting.

As for the twins, I only like Alisaie. I believe she's one of the few Scions who cares about the WoL on a personal level (just my subjective opinion).

I already mentioned it earlier in a post with Theo, but yeah Im a Fordola fan as well. I want and hope we get more of her in the MSQ, and Im happy they didnt kill her off or just leave her forgotten to fade into obscurity.
I think her willingness to defect/convert happened a little to fast (Unless the timeline in FFXIV accelerated faster then I realized) but I do like her redemption Arc.
Estinian X Fordola Tag Team When?

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Hell, I'm not even a huge fan of Fordola myself other than I would recruit any "realist" to balance out the idealism in the group. Estinien said the world has enough realists, but not from where I'm sitting.

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There is a very common theme that used a lot in JRPG - those who can dream are the one who hold the future. It's used a lot in Japanese writing, be it light novel, mange, video game or anime. The realist vs idealist is more of a translation to make it more easy to understand in the west, but realist here is not the same as pragmatism.

Realist in this context refer to people who focus on the immediate presence, while idealist is more about having a dream rather than principled idea. That's why Estinien refer to himself as realist, as both he and Fordola only focus on the present, and that's why they both accepted and get trapped in the cycle of conflict. Realist here mean they see a conflict, and accept the only resolution is the complete annihilation of the enemy. Whether someone like Alphinauh dare to dream about an actual escape route.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Is Fordola not popular among JP players? I seem to recall seeing a thread on the JP forums asking for Highlanders to be made more feminine. Combined with her abrasive personality, I could see how she might not be. She's one of the most requested party members in my circles, granted that's anecdotal. Hell, I'm not even a huge fan of Fordola myself other than I would recruit any "realist" to balance out the idealism in the group. Estinien said the world has enough realists, but not from where I'm sitting.

As for the twins, I only like Alisaie. I believe she's one of the few Scions who cares about the WoL on a personal level (just my subjective opinion).

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I'm pretty sure Fordola isn't really popular anywhere, lmao. Even around here I'm only recently really seeing her brought up as a bludgeon used to complain about the Scions. My beautiful wife deserves better and to be appreciated on her own merits!

But yeah, re: femininity, I wouldn't be surprised, alas. "Fordola isn't feminine enough" clowns to the left of me, "G'raha isn't masculine enough" jokers to the right, and here I am, stuck in the middle with actually good taste <_< with you!

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

I think her willingness to defect/convert happened a little to fast (Unless the timeline in FFXIV accelerated faster then I realized) but I do like her redemption Arc.

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I was actually okay with that, but it's because she never felt like she was on the side of the Empire. Her thoughts and her heart were always with her people. Everything she did was to bring them equality in the society they were thrust in. Even if they hated her for it. So I didn't feel there was anything for her to defect or convert from.

Fordola not being super popular on either side of the ocean is why she got shoved into no speaking role quests and the like and had an extremely small role in the MSQ post Stormblood. Which is a shame because I do like her and wish she was more prominent

Aveyond is straight up lying and has absolutely no source to back it up, meanwhile both twins were in the single digits of the EW Jpn popularity poll.

Curious that all of these wonderful polls are never conducted overseas in the west. Sort of strange, isn't it?

In any case I firmly believe that Fordola as a postergirl for this game would move more copies than the twins. You put her on an ad and I'll at least consider checking the game out. You put Alphi on an ad especially that Sage cgi of his and I just look the other way.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Curious that all of these wonderful polls are never conducted overseas in the west. Sort of strange, isn't it?

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Yes, how strange that polls are chiefly done in the work's home country of origin.

Gee, I wonder how many Japanese World of Warcraft or GTA Online polls there are?

Get out of here with this, dude.

They are so disconnected from their Western playerbase that they thought Hrothgar would somehow captivate the WoW audience when their new race has at least twice as many options as our take on a beast race. All they had to do was add eyebrows to Highlander. Goodness, I'm told that even the new dragon race has better eyebrows than them even.

Is it really that bad to ask to not be ignored like this?

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

They are so disconnected from their Western playerbase that they thought Hrothgar would somehow captivate the WoW audience when their new race has at least twice as many options as our take on a beast race. All they had to do was add eyebrows to Highlander. Goodness, I'm told that even the new dragon race has better eyebrows than them even.

Is it really that bad to ask to not be ignored like this?

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Nope. You can't try to pull this card when you have yet to prove your argument about Fordola. You don't get to pretend these are the same.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

Nope. You can't try to pull this card when you have yet to prove your argument about Fordola. You don't get to pretend these are the same.

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I don't believe its unreasonable to say that a redheaded Scottish woman with a sword would sell more copies of this game if she had her own cgi art instead of the twins. There's certainly more to market there. Of course that depends on what playerbase you're aiming for.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Curious that all of these wonderful polls are never conducted overseas in the west. Sort of strange, isn't it?

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Not particularly? I can't think of any polls SE has directly taken for character popularity. The ones linked for Japanese opinions tend to be the big one for all FF games done by NHK or smaller fan polls. So it's about as "curious" as posting a favorite character thread on these boards, which has happened more than once. EDIT: There's also the recent Famitsu poll, but that is also not a poll directly conducted by SE.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I don't believe its unreasonable to say that a redheaded Scottish woman with a sword would sell more copies of this game if she had her own cgi art instead of the twins. There's certainly more to market there. Of course that depends on what playerbase you're aiming for.

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A red-headed "Scottish" (WTF?) woman being inherently more popular a pair of cute white-haired elf twins is a VERY unreasonable statement to make with no proof to back it up.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I don't believe its unreasonable to say that a redheaded Scottish woman with a sword would sell more copies of this game if she had her own cgi art instead of the twins. There's certainly more to market there. Of course that depends on what playerbase you're aiming for.

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I think that's extremely unreasonable without any logical evidence backing it up, and I also like Fordola a lot. (In fact, she was my favorite NPC introduced in Stormblood.)

People point to things like polls because--in aggregate--they give you a pretty solid idea of how the fanbase feels about particular characters. We know that Emet-Selch is likely going to be number one, G'raha Tia will be high, and Haurchefant will also be pretty high. This is not because they are three of my favorite NPCs in the game and therefore my taste is what the game follows, but because they are always at the higher end of the spectrum and have proven to have lasting staying power.

If you want people to take posts like these seriously, you need to provide evidence that isn't just "I think" or "my taste is..."

(Endwalker spoilers)

I think it makes perfect sense for the Garleans to switch back to a republic. They tried having an emperor. Less than a hundred years after putting him on the throne, their country is totally leaderless because everyone who could take charge is dead, brainwashed, or gone with no plan to return; the remaining population is hiding from deathbots in a subway station; and a despair-monster that used to be the emperor's uncle is brainwashing people left and right. The republic clearly had its problems, but hereditary monarchy has not made itself look very good.

I do like the idea of switching out some of the Scions for people who aren't from Sharlayan/academics/white-haired, though. A Garlean machinist might be nice, since the Scions don't really have anyone with tech skills who isn't occupied with Ironworks business, or a consistent ranged physical DPS. If you want character development for Alphinaud, I think that might be an interesting way to do it. He can keep protecting people as a healer, not a swordsman, which I feel is an important part of his character, but they could maybe get into the same character type as EW!Fordola - someone who's done some horrible things and has serious emotional issues, but is really working on being a better person.

I do wonder what the average western gamer would think of FFXIV if presented with Haurchefant or G'raha Tia as the posterboys without knowing a single thing about them. I have to say I don't think they would take that much of a liking to them, especially if it's the WoW crowd they're after.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I do wonder what the average western gamer would think of FFXIV if presented with Haurchefant or G'raha Tia as the posterboys without knowing a single thing about them. I have to say I don't think they would take that much of a liking to them, especially if it's the WoW crowd they're after.

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Dude, the Western fanbase watches Yu-Gi-Oh and plays gacha games. A pretty catboy and elf knight are not a problem for anyone who isn't extremely insecure about their masculinity.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I do wonder what the average western gamer would think of FFXIV if presented with Haurchefant or G'raha Tia as the posterboys without knowing a single thing about them. I have to say I don't think they would take that much of a liking to them, especially if it's the WoW crowd they're after.

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It's less the "WoW crowd they're after" and more "the WoW crowd that showed up", in which case they can tolerate G'raha and Haurchefant or leave for greener pastures. Most WoW players I've seen seem to like them just fine, though.

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Originally Posted by tokinokanatae

It's less the "WoW crowd they're after" and more "the WoW crowd that showed up", in which case they can tolerate G'raha and Haurchefant or leave for greener pastures. Most WoW players I've seen seem to like them just fine, though.

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Because goodness forbid they give highlanders some eyebrows or put a Snow Villiers or Gladiolus like character in the spotlight.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Because goodness forbid they give highlanders some eyebrows or put a Snow Villiers or Gladiolus like character in the spotlight.

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Why should they bother when those characters can't even beat Alphinaud's popularity, nevermind the three I just mentioned?

I kind of figured appealing to the crowd that's into Manly Men was what they had ShB-and-later Thancred for. He's in his 30s, reasonably tall (5'9'', which is the 50 mark for male Midlanders) and short-haired, tanks, has a kid he wants to protect (Ryne), picks up girls, and so on. The writer preferences for this game just don't seem to lean towards slab-of-muscle Manly Man, and I don't think that's a writing flaw.

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Originally Posted by Sarkany

I kind of figured appealing to the crowd that's into Manly Men was what they had ShB-and-later Thancred for. He's in his 30s, reasonably tall (5'9'', which is the 50 mark for male Midlanders) and short-haired, tanks, has a kid he wants to protect (Ryne), picks up girls, and so on. The writer preferences for this game just don't seem to lean towards slab-of-muscle Manly Man, and I don't think that's a writing flaw.

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Their "manly man" themes tend to play out frequently in the Manderville questlines. I get the impression that they prefer to use these sorts of characters for comedic relief over anything else, though that doesn't stop them from adding characters like this elsewhere. Bozja is a great example of this with Lyon the Beast King.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Their "manly man" themes tend to play out frequently in the Manderville questlines. I get the impression that they prefer to use these sorts of characters for comedic relief over anything else, though that doesn't stop them from adding characters like this elsewhere. Bozja is a great example of this with Lyon the Beast King.

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And Lyon is a badass. Same for characters like Ranjit. Zenos himself isn't exactly small either. Gostestu also comes to mind. Heck I'd lump Hien in there too

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

And Lyon is a badass. Same for characters like Ranjit. Zenos himself isn't exactly small either. Gostestu also comes to mind. Heck I'd lump Hien in there too

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Oh yeah, I love Lyon and Gosetsu. Ranjit wasn't around long but he was okay too.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

A red-headed "Scottish" (WTF?)

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Yeah, this one threw me. Listening to her English dub, her accent sounds more like Northern English/Yorkshire than Scottish. Same with Rauhban.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I do wonder what the average western gamer would think of FFXIV if presented with Haurchefant or G'raha Tia as the posterboys without knowing a single thing about them. I have to say I don't think they would take that much of a liking to them, especially if it's the WoW crowd they're after.

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1.0 was a disaster to play but they managed to bring in people well enough with Meteor on the cover of it in NA looking like he just came off a tour with his boy band.

At least Haurchie looked like he could fight.

Yeah, Haurchefant only moves away from "elf knight dude in chainmail with sword" once you see his dialogue and get some backstory. In appearance alone, he could drop into any number of fantasy series. I don't think I'd look too hard at a cover with him on it, but I'd certainly look harder than yet another cover with a brown-haired white human man.

(Personally, I can't stand Haurchefant as a character, but I know a lot of people love him.)

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

They are so disconnected from their Western playerbase that they thought Hrothgar would somehow captivate the WoW audience

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Hrothgar weren't created to lure in the WoW crowd. You say some silly things.
They were created as a new Player Character Option that wasnt just another human. Variety/Diversity.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

Hrothgar weren't created to lure in the WoW crowd. You say some silly things.
They were created as a new Player Character Option that wasnt just another human. Variety/Diversity.

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Given that the Hrothgar are based on the Ronso from FFX, and are literally given the same name on the first, if they were made to "appeal" to any demographic, wouldn't it be fans of FFX who really liked Kimahri? But yeah, it's a silly thing to say, not every decision is to appeal to the "WoW crowd" (I dispute a demographic like that even exist in the first place, WoW's popularity was huge and you can't really do anything to appeal specifically to a WoW player because different people played that game for different reasons.)

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Originally Posted by tokinokanatae

Why should they bother when those characters can't even beat Alphinaud's popularity, nevermind the three I just mentioned?

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I thought representation was important? It sure would be nice to have more testosterone present in the game in the form of conventionally attractive male characters - especially for those of us who are drawn to masculinity for the sake of representation and/or sex appeal. Not everyone is interested in feminine or androgynous aesthetics, after all.

I know a lot of people who aren't all that thrilled by the lack of an ability to design a tall, handsome human who is muscular and with authentic eyebrows. It's one of the most common aesthetic choices in pretty much any major game.

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Originally Posted by tokinokanatae

Why should they bother when those characters can't even beat Alphinaud's popularity, nevermind the three I just mentioned?

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Why should they bother adding Hrothgar, by that logic?

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I thought representation was important? It sure would be nice to have more testosterone present in the game in the form of conventionally attractive male characters - especially for those of us who are drawn to masculinity for the sake of representation and/or sex appeal. Not everyone is interested in feminine or androgynous aesthetics, after all.

I know a lot of people who aren\\'t all that thrilled by the lack of an ability to design a tall, handsome human who is muscular and with authentic eyebrows. It\\'s one of the most common aesthetic choices in pretty much any major game.

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It would be nice if FFXIV would give you the option to make a adult male that is more "normal" built.

And what I mean with normal built is not a dadbod, but rather a male that works out a little, has a bit of broad shoulders, slim arms, normal legs and have maybe 15-20% body fat instead of 8%.

I myself am slim and have muscular definition,
workout 1 hour a day (30 mins before breakfast and 30 in the evening).
I eat breakfast and lunch. Skip dinner, but I am absolutely not at 8% bodyfat. The majority of people that workout are not anywhere near 8% bodyfat.

Also... chest hair/facial stubble - which would go a long way in aging up the male characters.

There is not enough of the representation of traditional proto European men in the story due to the system oppression against the majority groups that happen everywhere. Tradition value is important. The value about the superiorly of monarchy like the Garlemald and the Ascian people above the inferior race is not respect by writers and they try to drag down. As the humble Garlemald soldier myself who love monarchy I am disappoint by this. Why can the Garlemald not have the Czar Nerva instead of the voting. This is not the place for the university campus politics statement with the high cost coffee and the burger.

I find this suspicious that the game take away the eyebrow of the high minestrone race like Highlander and only give back the drawn marker eyebrow. Yet they do not make the character lose the head hair because of the high minestrone. How can you be the Garlemalding player otherwise??

They can use WOW: Battle for Azurite system with the Allied Beast Tribe to give more race customing. Introduce the Garlemald and the Ascian as Allied Beast Tribe system so when you do the quest you can play with the alternate start. Can be similar on the Highlander except with the third eye and with the eyebrow. I know this is move away from the Alphanaud post but is important to say.

This is fiction story and I do not see why some post want to force the view just because the player force like the Yoshi World. Don't agree? Disagree to agree then.

I think if the Alphanaud was Garlean soldier this would not happen. He would not have time for the books and democracy because he have to do pushup and lift the bench.

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Originally Posted by Graeham

I think if the Alphanaud was Garlean soldier this would not happen. He would not have time for the books and democracy because he have to do pushup and lift the bench.

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I know I'm just replying to the last entry of your post, but this is really something that annoys me about most MMORPG's; the idea that "bookworms"(casters) should be skinny and frail

You want to have a strong mind? Then build your body. Having a strong body is the very foundation for evolving your brain.

A great bookworm is someone that would both hit the books and the gym.

Agree. I play the muscle magic chara. I use the muscle to cast the spell while I attack with the stick. I know this is difficult part of the Garlemald story and people challenge the rp because the bias against the spells but I have overcome the problem by train hard like wrestler.

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Originally Posted by Eldtagg

It would be nice if FFXIV would give you the option to make a adult male that is more "normal" built.

And what I mean with normal built is not a dadbod, but rather a male that works out a little, has a bit of broad shoulders, slim arms, normal legs and have maybe 15-20% body fat instead of 8%.

I myself am slim and have muscular definition,
workout 1 hour a day (30 mins before breakfast and 30 in the evening).
I eat breakfast and lunch. Skip dinner, but I am absolutely not at 8% bodyfat. The majority of people that workout are not anywhere near 8% bodyfat.

Also... chest hair/facial stubble - which would go a long way in aging up the male characters.

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I mean... okay as a customization option? But in-story it wouldn't make much sense given that WoL is a workaholic who exercises constantly either by fighting or obsessively training when they're not doing something else. In the Monk questline their exercise regimen is over ten hours of continuous exercise with ten-thousand reps of multiple fighting moves. Several cutscenes also have WoL exercising when not doing anything else, like doing squats whlie "eavesdropping" on Ryne and Gaia or doing pushups on a fishing boat. Numerous characters also comment on WoL having the "rugged looks" of an adventurer as well as how much muscle they've put on since their last meeting.

Dad bod WoL doesn't really make sense given their constantly active lifestyle.

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Originally Posted by Eldtagg

I know I'm just replying to the last entry of your post, but this is really something that annoys me about most MMORPG's; the idea that "bookworms"(casters) should be skinny and frail

You want to have a strong mind? Then build your body. Having a strong body is the very foundation for evolving your brain.

A great bookworm is someone that would both hit the books and the gym.

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Urianger has strong arms to the point that his minion comments on them. Alisaie trains to be physically fit so she can handle the physical demands of being a red mage. Alphinaud is skinny because he's sixteen and has yet to hit Elezen puberty.

Any caster WoL is still canonically ripped from how much training they do.

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Originally Posted by Eldtagg

I know I'm just replying to the last entry of your post, but this is really something that annoys me about most MMORPG's; the idea that "bookworms"(casters) should be skinny and frail

You want to have a strong mind? Then build your body. Having a strong body is the very foundation for evolving your brain.

A great bookworm is someone that would both hit the books and the gym.

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Except in this case it's less about stereotype but more about cultural differences. Compared to modern western culture Japanese always seemed to put almost androgynous, lean and "pretty" males at the pinnacle of beauty. They also seem to put slightly higher values at intelligence and academic records which do put people in the spotlight compared to western media/culture where characters showing those traits are usually social outcasts. Japanese are honestly pretty close minded even when it comes to game development. They rarely try to appeal to westerners and when they do it's very obvious. And honestly i prefer it that way since recently we really lack that end of the spectrum.

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Originally Posted by Dikatis

Dad bod WoL doesn't really make sense given their constantly active lifestyle.

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On the contrary, it makes perfect sense as an option - there's tribal warriors who have the equivalent of a 'dad bod' but are ridiculously active and strong. Equally, there's many construction workers who are active every day of the week but boast such a figure.

ESO has body sliders to allow a wide variety of body types ranging from slim to average to muscular to obese.

I think it's more likely that it's an aesthetic the game is reluctant to embrace. 'Realism' doesn't strike me as the reason for the absence of dad bods when the game has everyone equally capable of everything despite their height or other attributes...and if the game is willing to handwave those differences with 'aether' or 'dynamis' then such could be expanded elsewhere anyway.